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Is CAC grading compared to PCGS as strict as PCGS compared to NGC or ANACS...?

KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭✭✭

I thought this was interesting.
I do feel that many of these coins were poor choices for crack outs though.

Just wondering if this is a bit of an anomaly based on the coin selection or if folks getting stuff graded at CAC are seeing that the intensity of their grading is even "tighter" than our hosts'?

Any chance PCGS will actually end up being the 2nd tier grading company compared to CAC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0

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Comments

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The cents in the video appear to have been stored improperly.

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  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 7:13AM

    Do you care? I am not going to pay them (CAC) the big money they are asking anyway so it’s a moot issue for me. One big eBay seller their CAC prices were so ridiculous they way above CAC CDN retail. I have a few CACG pieces for my table at shows as a advertising display though. Had to payup for them. And will sell them if they pay me my cost plus markup.

    I watched the video twice and agree the cents looked terrible. Likely went bad in the holder. I certainly would not pay them extra on mods (ASE). If they trying push that angle - shove off, take a flying leap. As far as going from 70 to 68 on the ASE somebody could have picked 2 crummy ones that went bad in the holder.

    No way PCGS a second tier co. They are 1st tier by far.

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  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Education is indeed expensive.

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  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 6:28AM

    If submitting for cross to them would advise specify minimum grade.

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  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The CACG coins I have been looking at on GC are quite beautiful for what it's worth.

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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 7:12AM

    @gumby1234 said:
    The cents in the video appear to have been stored improperly.

    Quite posible.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would have left them in previous holders and started them on ebay at $.99 for 7 days. To each their own.

  • slider23slider23 Posts: 630 ✭✭✭✭

    Most of the coins in the video, I would not have sent into CAC for a sticker as it would be a waste of time and money. It appears that if the coin is not worthy of a sticker at grade, it is not going into a straight grade CACG holder. I remember my first submission of 20 Morgans to CAC and I got two green stickers. It looks like there is going to be a learning curve on what coins to submit to CACG. I am considering crossing over all my NGC coins with CAC stickers to CACG.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 8:43AM

    I saw this video, too, and first thought it was a ‘copper’ thing, until he started showing peace dollars that were also rejected. Had I been the submitter; I would’ve been furious. I’m sticking to NGC and PCGS (with stickers when possible). No crossovers for me!!! If I even buy a CACG coin, already graded, then that will be a big step for me!

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  • DropdaflagDropdaflag Posts: 745 ✭✭✭✭

    IMHO. Based on what I have seen, CACG is tighter over PCGS than PCGS over NGC or even PCGS over ANACS. The term "brutal honesty" comes to mind.

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Dropdaflag Brutal honesty is how it should be. Honestly except for the one cent that looks nice and straight graded at CACG all of the others look like they spent time in the swamp. The silver coins had scratches and some were cleaned. Even The coin geek said he could see the scratches.

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  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonder if this will influence grading at PCGS and/or NGC?
    I guess I’ll find out soon enough, as I plan to submit coins at FUN next week.

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  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    Wonder if this will influence grading at PCGS and/or NGC?
    I guess I’ll find out soon enough, as I plan to submit coins at FUN next week.

    So do I, to CACG. I will be curious to see how busy the TPG tables are on Wednesday.........


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  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The referenced videographer who created the content, in the OP, also created a follow up video.

    In the follow up, he stated that purchasing CACG slabs are now a good buying opportunity, as they may really go up, in the future, just as CAC stickered coins did.

    He goes on to say that buying problem CACG slabs may also be a buying opportunity, as they could cross into problem free NGC or PCGS plastic. Lol!!

    Ah yes, The big game… so glad I don’t play, at that level. The market is ever-changing. What is en vogue, today, may not be so tomorrow. This is why I am not worried about eagerly hopping onto any one bandwagon, at this point in time.

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  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This video was already posted to another thread. I don't know much but I do know that whoever sent those coins in has zero clue on how to grade. If the submitter (assuming it was someone other that the guy in the vid) is really a coin dealer he should consider another line of work.

    My guess is these coins were sent in for one of two reasons, either to try and pull one over on CACG so that he could produce a video to bash CACG because he was able to do so. Or to do this bashing video with the rejects, either way he just looks like a complete fool.

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  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Relax, we're still in the 1st chapter of "The complete history of grading coins" book.

  • DropdaflagDropdaflag Posts: 745 ✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @Dropdaflag Brutal honesty is how it should be. Honestly except for the one cent that looks nice and straight graded at CACG all of the others look like they spent time in the swamp. The silver coins had scratches and some were cleaned. Even The coin geek said he could see the scratches.

    I am not saying its a bad thing. Just a bigger seismic shift than many anticipated.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:
    Here is another vid> @FrankH said:

    @slider23 said:

    I'm leaving this NGC slab alone. ;)

    If you plan to sell, I'd cross that to CACG in a heartbeat..............

    I kind of agree but astute folks will assume it was previously in an NGC holder when it’s crosses into a CACG holder with an L.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:

    @spacehayduke said:
    Here is another vid> @FrankH said:

    @slider23 said:

    I'm leaving this NGC slab alone. ;)

    If you plan to sell, I'd cross that to CACG in a heartbeat..............

    I kind of agree but astute folks will assume it was previously in an NGC holder when it’s crosses into a CACG holder with an L.

    So is "L" some sort of "Scarlet Letter" 6 months into CACG grading coins?

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll let people who see far more coins than I do make this call. Five years ago virtually everything I sent to CAC stickered. More recently, it has been about 1 in 3. I believe the overall quality of coins I have submitted has been fairly consistent. The stickering has not. This may or may not apply to CACG.

    As others have mentioned, they focus pretty much on gold, which I don't collect, so I don't know how relevant this will be to my collecting habits.

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  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:
    Just because grading is tight doesn’t mean it’s correct.

    No worries for you then, just keep your coins in whatever holders they are in now and everything will be fine.


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  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Raybo said:
    Why has nobody mentioned "gradeflation" in this thread,
    Maybe CAC has turned back the hands of time?

    Grading is like the stock market. Sometimes up, sometimes down.

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 4:53PM

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Rexford said:
    Just because grading is tight doesn’t mean it’s correct.

    No worries for you then, just keep your coins in whatever holders they are in now and everything will be fine.

    Ok . . . I don’t collect US coins, so it doesn’t affect me. I’ve seen multiple ridiculously graded CACG coins at this point though. It isn’t “brutally honest” to drop a PCGS MS65 Walking Liberty to an AU58 - it’s just inaccurate. And my point stands in general - tight doesn’t mean right. Tight means tight. Consistency is more important than being tight or loose anyway, and there isn’t enough data to show that CACG has been consistent.

  • SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IME, ranking current grading strictness form hardest to easiest is: CACG -> ANACS / PCGS -> NGC.
    Of course, there is no truly objective and valid way of comparing the TPGs across all series and dates, which is why I write IME (personal experience and limited series/date comparisons)

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  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Rexford said:
    Just because grading is tight doesn’t mean it’s correct.

    No worries for you then, just keep your coins in whatever holders they are in now and everything will be fine.

    Ok . . . I don’t collect US coins, so it doesn’t affect me. I’ve seen multiple ridiculously graded CACG coins at this point though. It isn’t “brutally honest” to drop a PCGS MS65 Walking Liberty to an AU58 - it’s just inaccurate. And my point stands in general - tight doesn’t mean right. Tight means tight. Consistency is more important than being tight or loose anyway, and there isn’t enough data to show that CACG has been consistent.

    Your statement assumes a great bit, why do you assume that PCGS got it correct? Maybe CACG did get it correct.

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  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 6:01PM

    @coinbuf said:

    @Rexford said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Rexford said:
    Just because grading is tight doesn’t mean it’s correct.

    No worries for you then, just keep your coins in whatever holders they are in now and everything will be fine.

    Ok . . . I don’t collect US coins, so it doesn’t affect me. I’ve seen multiple ridiculously graded CACG coins at this point though. It isn’t “brutally honest” to drop a PCGS MS65 Walking Liberty to an AU58 - it’s just inaccurate. And my point stands in general - tight doesn’t mean right. Tight means tight. Consistency is more important than being tight or loose anyway, and there isn’t enough data to show that CACG has been consistent.

    Your statement assumes a great bit, why do you assume that PCGS got it correct? Maybe CACG did get it correct.

    Because I can grade well enough to tell the difference between a 58 and a 65. And PCGS is not misgrading WLHs that much. They’re not that difficult to grade. I don’t have pics of it in the PCGS holder, but here:

    It seems that it’s harder to grade coins when they’re not already in the holders.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk said:

    @skier07 said:

    @spacehayduke said:
    Here is another vid> @FrankH said:

    @slider23 said:

    I'm leaving this NGC slab alone. ;)

    If you plan to sell, I'd cross that to CACG in a heartbeat..............

    I kind of agree but astute folks will assume it was previously in an NGC holder when it’s crosses into a CACG holder with an L.

    So is "L" some sort of "Scarlet Letter" 6 months into CACG grading coins?

    Perhaps

  • HillbillyCollectorHillbillyCollector Posts: 482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:

    @Rexford said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Rexford said:
    Just because grading is tight doesn’t mean it’s correct.

    No worries for you then, just keep your coins in whatever holders they are in now and everything will be fine.

    Ok . . . I don’t collect US coins, so it doesn’t affect me. I’ve seen multiple ridiculously graded CACG coins at this point though. It isn’t “brutally honest” to drop a PCGS MS65 Walking Liberty to an AU58 - it’s just inaccurate. And my point stands in general - tight doesn’t mean right. Tight means tight. Consistency is more important than being tight or loose anyway, and there isn’t enough data to show that CACG has been consistent.

    Do you have a photo of said coin? I’m curious to see just how “inaccurate” it was.

    >
    I too would desperately like to see the ‘before and after’ photos! To drop from a gem to a 58 is quite the feat! But if the coin is anything like some of those coins (and I use that term loosely) that were floating around in a YouTube video where I believe a PCGS MS64 or 65 went to a CACG detailed holder, things start to come in focus. If that Walking Liberty was comparable to some of the coins in that video, I would say the submitter should feel quite fortunate they came away with a AU58!

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @renomedphys said:
    All the grading companies are engaged in market grading. If the market value of a problem free (enough) coin equates to what coins in their particular holders bring in the marketplace, the coin goes into that holder. CAC just wants that number to be higher than PCGS and the rest. JA told me this himself, and it makes sense to me.

    That said, for all the cases where any of the grading companies get it right, there are still many cases where they don’t. CAC’s expertise in particular is heavily biased towards gold. Silver less so, and copper least of all. I find their grading of copper to be completely haphazard, especially 10-15 years ago when they got started. They tend to not like coins with a dark side, but will sticker a seemingly obviously recolored early copper piece. Their emphasis on “original skin” leads them to sticker ugly or poorly struck coins.

    Ahem. This was not meant to be a rant. I think what I’m getting at here is that stickers and numbers on holders are at their very best guidance. Letting somebody else’s opinion sway your decision to buy at a given price is amateurish. You buy what you like. For whatever reason. Period.

    If there were just one observation in the past months on this topic that I had to choose and mark with a "*", this is it. It is Spot On. CAC(G) has a xenophobic view of toning, particularly on copper. But that is only one opinion, so learn and buy what you like, not what you're told.

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  • HillbillyCollectorHillbillyCollector Posts: 482 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 6:19PM

    @coinbuf said:

    @Rexford said:
    Because I can grade well enough to tell the difference between a 58 and a 65. And PCGS is not misgrading WLHs that much. They’re not that difficult to grade. I don’t have pics of it in the PCGS holder, but here:

    It seems that it’s harder to grade coins when they’re not already in the holders.

    From the photo I see a touch of rub on the left (viewers right) breast, looks like CACG got it right if you are grading on a technical level and just the type of coin that the market grading firms place into MS holders.

    It seems that many are so accustomed to market grading that they may have forgotten how to grade.

    >
    When I go to CoinFacts and pull up a MS65, I see booming luster that I fully expect to see. I’m sorry, I don’t see nothing like the kind of luster with this coin.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 6:31PM

    @Rexford said:
    No one is forgetting how to grade. It’s very weird that CACG is commanding any sort of respect on this forum when it isn’t in any of the other circles I’ve come across, specifically from the people who are actually seeing and dealing with these coins. How many of those supporting CACG in this thread have actually seen CACG coins in hand, and how many are simply blindly following them in support of what they perceive to be “technical grading”?

    I submitted my first set of coins to CACG in Nov and had my submission back in hand in 2 1/2 weeks, prepping my next submission as we speak to send out in early Jan.

    In your earlier comment you said you don't collect US coins, yet you seem to have this US coin, so do you collect US coins or do you not?

    Not having photos in the PCGS MS65 holder is very convenient.

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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 6:34PM

    @Rexford said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Rexford said:
    Just because grading is tight doesn’t mean it’s correct.

    No worries for you then, just keep your coins in whatever holders they are in now and everything will be fine.

    Ok . . . I don’t collect US coins, so it doesn’t affect me. I’ve seen multiple ridiculously graded CACG coins at this point though. It isn’t “brutally honest” to drop a PCGS MS65 Walking Liberty to an AU58 - it’s just inaccurate. And my point stands in general - tight doesn’t mean right. Tight means tight. Consistency is more important than being tight or loose anyway, and there isn’t enough data to show that CACG has been consistent.

    It would be wothwhile to see the coins in hand. In this particular case, the difference may be more about Market Grading vs. Technical Grading. Many TPGs are using Market Grading now where something like a rub does not preclude a MS grade, but the new service is using Technical Grading where it does. I've seen people support both types of grading on these forums, long before this new grading servce came into existence.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not sure that WLH has rub, but rather high point toning from envelope-type storage. Hard to tell from the pics.

    On the bright side, it may be worth more as a 58+ in that holder, if the craze for 58+ coins in CACG holders is anything like it is for 58+ PCGS coins.

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  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 6:48PM

    @Rexford for a non US collector and someone that hates CAC grading you sure do have a bunch of US coins that you clearly cracked out and sent to CAC to grade. :D

    PS. I have not seen anything in your photos or video that would prove that CACG got it wrong when grading on a technical basis.

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  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:
    @Rexford for a non US collector and someone that hates CAC grading you sure do have a bunch of US coins that you clearly cracked out and sent to CAC to grade. :D

    These aren’t my coins.

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