Oldest Coins

flyguyfl

I found this interesting so we coin collectors are not new on the scene.
https://www.oldest.org/culture/coins/

OAKSTAR

You might want to post it here, in the Ancient coins forum.

https://forums.collectors.com/categories/world-ancient-coins-forum

MWallace

Wrong forum, I know, but.............

Sapyx

@flyguyfl said:
I found this interesting so we coin collectors are not new on the scene.

Well, the "oldest coins" and the "oldest coin collectors" are two different things. While coins date back to 600 BC, "coin collecting" is much newer.

There is some evidence that some wealthy people in ancient times "collected coins" - there is a line in Suetonius stating that ROman emperor Augustus would give out odd trinkets, including "old coins of the kings of Rome", to friends during the Saturnalia festival. But this isn't really evidence that he was a "coin collector", just an "antiquarian". interested in old and odd things.

Pliny the Elder mentions in his "Natural History" encyclopedia, in the chapter on silver, that there were people out there who were paying more than a denarius to purchase a fake denarius - and being prepared to pay above face value for a coin is certainly a clear hallmark of a coin collector. But these "collections" of fake coins seem to have been for utilitarian purposes, so that merchants could own and study fake coins so they wouldn't get caught out by them, rather than collecting for collecting's sake.

There is also the curious ancient Roman coin series where coin designs from previous decades, or even previous centuries, were "restruck" by later emperors, and it is argued that there must have been some kind of "Imperial coin collection" for mint workers to examine and copy the old designs from. But this is circumstantial evidence at best.

There are certainly no surviving Western ancient-era coin catalogues, or any evidence that anyone ever wrote or compiled such catalogues - and such reference works are essential if the hobby of coin collecting is to be anything other than an eccentricity of the wealthy. You cannot seriously "collect coins" if you have no idea what kind of coins might be out there to collect.

"Coin collecting" did not take off in Europe until it was advocated by Petrarch, the "father of the Renaissance", as being a hobby worthy of a righteous prince. Petrarch saw coin collecting as a means to learn moral lessons from famous characters in history. In 1354, Petrarch gave an exceptionally educational coin collection to Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV, but was bitterly disappointed that the emperor's only interest in the coins was how much they were worth, monetarily.

The situation with Chinese numismatics is quite different - there are surviving fragments of coin catalogues from the 500s and 600s AD, which in turn quote from even earlier reference works which have not survived. So "coin collecting" seems to have been more popular in ancient China than it was in the ancient West. This may be in part explainable by noting that Western coins were normally made of silver and gold, while Chinese coins were all bronze; this lower cost put coin collecting viably into the budget of the Chinese lower classes.

1northcoin

Thanks Sapyx. Appreciate the time you invested to research and share here that fascinating history.

As to the oldest coins, Ionia does appear to have that claim. I acquired an Ionian coin from a Seattle dealer who represented that it was the oldest gold coin.

This from BullionByPost:

Lydian electrum coin
Lydian electrum coin, 6th Century BC
These first gold coins were not pure gold, but electrum; a natural alloy of gold and silver found in Lydia's rivers. The metal was stamped with animal heads, such as lions, bulls, and rams. Lydian coins weighed anything from as little as 0.006 troy ounces up to half an ounce.

Adding to the intrigue:

Was Ionia part of Lydia?
Ionia - Wikipedia
It was not until the reign of Croesus (560–545 BC) that the cities of Ionia fell completely under Lydian rule.

Sapyx

"Lydia" and "Ionia" were neighbouring regions of what is now western Turkey; Lydia was inland, Ionia on the coast. Lydia was a powerful kingdom in the region, before it was invaded and assimilated by Persia shortly after Lydian coinage was invented.

It is often claimed that the very first electrum coins used naturally-occurring electrum taken from the rivers near Sardis, the Lydian capital. But chemical analysis of both the surviving coins and of the remnants of the electrum still found in the river today shows the natural electrum to be much higher in gold content than most Lydian coins. The Lydian government clearly was diluting the electrum with silver before turning it into coins. So, debasement was a feature of coinage right from its very invention.

jmlanzaf

@1northcoin said:
Thanks Sapyx. Appreciate the time you invested to research and share here that fascinating history.

As to the oldest coins, Ionia does appear to have that claim. I acquired an Ionian coin from a Seattle dealer who represented that it was the oldest gold coin.

This from BullionByPost:

Lydian electrum coin
Lydian electrum coin, 6th Century BC
These first gold coins were not pure gold, but electrum; a natural alloy of gold and silver found in Lydia's rivers. The metal was stamped with animal heads, such as lions, bulls, and rams. Lydian coins weighed anything from as little as 0.006 troy ounces up to half an ounce.

Adding to the intrigue:

Was Ionia part of Lydia?
Ionia - Wikipedia
It was not until the reign of Croesus (560–545 BC) that the cities of Ionia fell completely under Lydian rule.

It's actually not clear. Chinese coins arose independently at approximately the same time.

Sapyx

Chinese and Greek archaeologists like to debate about which of their civilizations "invented coins first". It largely depends on your definition of "coin".

China undisputedly invented "money" first, but the "money" they invented was quite un-coin-like: bronze replica cowrie shells, knives, spades, things like that. Originally, there was virtually no difference between the spades-made-for-money and the spades-made-for-use-as-a-spade; the monetary objects had dull edges, but could readily be sharpened by any village metalsmith, allowing you to use your spade-money as an actual spade. Slowly, these monetary objects became less utilitarian and more symbolic in shape. Objects that are indisputably "coins" - the round coins with the holes in them that are known as "cash" in the West - came much later than the first Greek coinage examples.

There is also considerable debate as to whether certain Chinese artifacts were actually made for use as money, or had some other function and their monetary use was either secondary or non-existent. For example, I'm not entirely sure that the gold object depicted in the OP's link at position number 3 is actually monetary in origin; it seems to me to be more intended to be used like a block of chocolate, allowing a goldsmith or merchant to break off measurable known amounts of gold as needed rather than intended to be traded as a whole intact object. It's also uncertain if these artifacts carry any form of government authorization, required for designating a monetary object as a "coin". So, one can certainly debate its status as a "coin".

There is an unbroken continuum of coinage in the Western tradition, from Lydia right through to today. The various forms of Chinese proto-money did not last, and did not influence the formation of money either within China or abroad, with only the cash coins surviving and carrying down through to modern times. Modern coins are descended from Lydia, not China. Thus I personally have no problem with the claim that "the Lydians invented coinage". The Chinese will have to settle for the consolation prize: "the Chinese invented money first".

jmlanzaf

@Sapyx said:
Chinese and Greek archaeologists like to debate about which of their civilizations "invented coins first". It largely depends on your definition of "coin".

China undisputedly invented "money" first, but the "money" they invented was quite un-coin-like: bronze replica cowrie shells, knives, spades, things like that. Originally, there was virtually no difference between the spades-made-for-money and the spades-made-for-use-as-a-spade; the monetary objects had dull edges, but could readily be sharpened by any village metalsmith, allowing you to use your spade-money as an actual spade. Slowly, these monetary objects became less utilitarian and more symbolic in shape. Objects that are indisputably "coins" - the round coins with the holes in them that are known as "cash" in the West - came much later than the first Greek coinage examples.

There is also considerable debate as to whether certain Chinese artifacts were actually made for use as money, or had some other function and their monetary use was either secondary or non-existent. For example, I'm not entirely sure that the gold object depicted in the OP's link at position number 3 is actually monetary in origin; it seems to me to be more intended to be used like a block of chocolate, allowing a goldsmith or merchant to break off measurable known amounts of gold as needed rather than intended to be traded as a whole intact object. It's also uncertain if these artifacts carry any form of government authorization, required for designating a monetary object as a "coin". So, one can certainly debate its status as a "coin".

There is an unbroken continuum of coinage in the Western tradition, from Lydia right through to today. The various forms of Chinese proto-money did not last, and did not influence the formation of money either within China or abroad, with only the cash coins surviving and carrying down through to modern times. Modern coins are descended from Lydia, not China. Thus I personally have no problem with the claim that "the Lydians invented coinage". The Chinese will have to settle for the consolation prize: "the Chinese invented money first".

That's true but I still prefer, like some others, to consider it a tie. I do find it interesting that "money" developed independently at about the same time.

By the way, it is also worth noting that the Chinese also were the first to "invent" paper money.