Virtual prong removal - yeah or nay
Mr_Spud
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Experimenting with new prong removal technique. Is this worth doing? Does it look real? What do you think, yeah or nay? Note - not to deceive or mask problems to rip people off when selling, just to make “show off” images. The new technique takes seconds to do.
Mr_Spud
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I’m sure some others will disagree. But I think part of the prongs showing looks worse/stranger than all of them showing.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Those look exceptional!
Prong removal is the key to having pics one enjoys looking at 👍
Recall this one you did for me. Perfect.
Yes, my new technique is a refinement of the technique I used to remove your prongs. I did that one with my finger. The new technique involves loading the image twice, one on top of the other, then rotating the bottom picture so the bottom image has the no prongs on the rim area where the top image has the prongs. Then shrink the top image just enough so the un-pronged bottom image is visible. Then using a stylus to highlight the prongs and the automatic “magic eraser” (a button on my Pixelcut app that clones whatever image is next to it) automatically clones and blends in the unpronged rim area from the picture below it. Since the rim is already the exact same color of the coin, it fools the eye into thinking the prongs don’t exist and the rim area where the prongs were is real. Because I know those areas aren’t real they stick out like a sore thumb to me, so that’s why I posted asking others opinions. Does it fool the eyes enough if you don’t know how it’s done and/or if you aren’t the person who did it.
Sounds complicated, but it takes just a few seconds.
Mr_Spud
Call me old-school but I'm against anything 'virtual'.
We're heading down a bad path although I do believe it's a path that will be inevitably taken.
I can only dream of yesteryear with cash transactions, actual bank tellers and pay phones on every street corner (how's that for your laugh of the day!!).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Yes, I long for those days also, and often escape into the past with my hobbies. I love analog, steam punk, vintage coin albums, old books etc… But I also try and make usable virtual things out of the old vintage things so they won’t be forgotten. I like to think/pretend I’m immortalizing them so they won’t go extinct as we move forward into the virtual future. Below is exhibit A…
Mr_Spud
I dig it 👆
When the world ends.....it will be from some hitherto undreamed of CONVENIENCE foisted on humanity.
...........or"TECHNOLOGY."
That’s right and there’s not much anyone person can do to change it.
On a light note:
I was one inch away from a double eagle on Friday. The tap in eagle was huge in breaking my personal best by one stroke, was 79.
Next thing you'll want is crank handles on your car doors.
I see where you're going and I don't want to go there. I've had my ears boxed enough😉
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I had crank handles on my Honda Civic (base model of course) from 2000 to 2011 when NO ONE had cranks. My Kids really thought I was nuts._
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
How does it look on high grade coins with nice, sharp rims? (Prong removal, not window cranks.)
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
It looks like this
Here’s a screenshot half way through the setup of the process so you can see how it works
And right after I do the magic eraser so you can see how it works
Mr_Spud
I like it. Perhaps CACG could adopt this strategy if shooting the coins raw will never be an option.
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And I didn’t like the way the top right prong area looked above “AM” in AMERICA so I touched it with my finger just now. Now it looks like this, the one on the right is the one I touched the top right prong area 🧐
Mr_Spud
I've always wanted my photos to be realistic and true to the coin. I don't do heavy alterations like this unless it's for educational purposes.
Coin Photographer.
I agree it’s important to be true to the coin and that alterations can accidently or deliberately trick people, but for show off pictures I think it’s ok to make them look pretty. After all, prongs aren’t the coin and I’m just making the coin closer to what it should look like if the prongs weren’t there. But this is just the type of discussion I was wanting, besides just asking for opinions on whether it looks good.
Mr_Spud
This is a reasonable stance.
I personally don't agree with it, as I feel accuracy is more important. If it needs to look pretty, then the coin can be cracked.
Coin Photographer.
Not bad. 2 out of 4 on the first attempt, 3 on the touch-up. Now do a sharp rim with denticles. After that, a $2.50 Indian.
I wouldn't use this to sell a coin, but it is a promising way to produce simply a pretty picture. I never use NGC coins in prong holders in my calendars because they just don't look good. PCGS prongs are more inconspicuous. This may be a path to including them, assuming the covered part of the coin most likely looks exactly like uncovered parts of the coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The 3 cent piece and the dime I used already were my most noticable prongs. Here’s my coin images and there are other prongs, but those 2 were my worst. I’d probably have to start from scratch and not crop as closely in the original images from a slab photo to have a sharper rim with denticals and all that. My slabbed coins are all in the safety deposit box, haven’t seen them in about a year. When I first took the pictures, any with noticable prongs I ended up sacrificing a tiny bit of the very edge of the coin to deemphasize the prongs.
Mr_Spud
Nothing wrong with crank handles, every bell whistle and doo dad you put on a car is just something else to break and put your car in the shop.
Congratulations! (For a moment I thought you were talking about a coin.)
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Some may feel this is a form of slab doctoring. An extension of coin doctoring. However, the lack of prongs concept is somewhat appealing. Maybe the before/after photos displayed at the same in a presentation might be something to consider.
It almost does right
it was an 1879…
The images definitely look better without them. I was just be sure to note to anyone inquiring that the images were edited.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I’m somewhat a purist when it comes to digital manipulation and photography.
That said, I see nothing wrong with your use of these tools to modestly alter the images for your own viewing pleasure. It’s just the rims, and minimal and if it’s more pleasing as a screen saver or calendar then go for it.
I too would object to it being used while marketing a coin.
Edited to add: BTW, these look great and you did an excellent job!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
At first I was a bit confused by many of the responses above, because I wasn't looking at it from the selling buying angle at all.
That definitely matters, manipulated images by sellers truly suck.
From the perspective of enjoying one's slabbed coins virtually, I absolutely want those prongs gone in my images if possible. .
Don't throw Spud under the coin doctor bus!
😂
Thanks everybody for the great feedback. The reason I experimented refining the technique yesterday was really just because I think my quickie collage I made yesterday to post on the “Official” 1857 coin thread looked ugly to me
Mr_Spud
Very much against. It introduces a definite "falsity" into the image. Notice that the upper left and bottom prongs cover small areas of dark toning which extend toward the edge from such areas nearby on the coin. It can be made out, if only barely, in the photos with prongs. On the images without prongs, it has been washed out to an even dull gray, which is not an "honest" representation of the coin in those areas.
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Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
The photographer in me appreciates the idea, and I applaud @Mr_Spud for the well-executed effort. The collector in me however would rather have the coins well photographed before being slabbed so that all areas can be seen. I'm not a big prong fan TBH unless there is something noteworthy about the edge or edge design that needs to be seen, or in the case of errors/ancients or other out of round items where prongs are needed for proper display.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Far out, Man!
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Pete
I don't see a problem, as long as the "doctoring" is clearly disclosed and the final product is done a little better. I think it creates an attractive and classic visual appeal to a slabbed coin, viewing it as raw.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
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How about something like “AI-enhanced” in the form of a watermark logo that is on the templates I load the images onto so it’s obvious that the image was enhanced 🤔
Mr_Spud
I don't think a watermark is necessary. For the ethical use case being enjoying the result as a nicer picture, a watermark would defeat the purpose, so people wouldn't want it. For the unethical use case of representing what an unknown part of the coin for sale might look like without disclosure, the unethical seller won't want the watermark, therefore wouldn't want it.
A sticky scenario would be one in which a coin has had its photo retouched, then the photo floats around on the internet as photos tend to do. The coin is later sold, perhaps more than once, is cracked out to reveal a problem under the prongs. The photo then resurfaces as a result of an image search, revealing nice rims rather than a problem. The owner now wonders where the marks came from.
Another is where someone comes across the retouched photo of a coin they're thinking of buying from someone not involved with the retouched photo, either printed or online, and the retouched rims influence their purchase decision. Crackout reveals problem, buyer unhappy, can't return coin.
In both of these cases, a picture not intended for use in buying or selling a coin is accidentally used for that purpose. The coin is accidentally misrepresented and eventually someone gets upset about it and looks for a party to blame.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Can you do it from a pic on here. I've always hated the prongs in this pic of an otherwise awesome coin.
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I like it. Most of us enjoy our coins digitally, so it makes sense to make the experience the best it can be.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
If your process takes hold, can you patent it? Seems today anything can be.
I’m taking a break from refining the technique, probably at least until sometime in 2024. As for Patentability, others have done it before in Photoshop, but not as quickly and not with as much reliance on AI assist. But reading the emails above, I get the idea that some people seem to be worried about “Liberty” and “In God We Trust” is at risk of being totally replaced by AI 🤔
Mr_Spud
Sorry, I was starting to post something political.
Mr_Spud
I am a purist, I can't image what I can't see so I won't replace the prongs with an interpretation. I would not buy a coin from an image that removes the prongs and replaces with an interpretation either. Who knows what else they did to the image and how would I know I am buying something that will look like the image when I have it in hand?
Best, SH