1889 CC Morgan Silver Dollar HELP!
Yoshdog
Posts: 5 ✭
I’d like to start out by saying I’ve been collecting coins for 48 hours. That being said I need some help on a coin that I inherited a while ago and finally decided to look into . It’s a 1889 CC Morgan in an old PCI green label slab(I will post pictures) graded AU 50.
I’ve done enough research in the past two days to know that it is rare and valuable in the right condition. In my research I understand that PCI is no longer a reputable grading company and has gone through a lot of sales of the company, it was once a decent grading company in the early years, but eventually went downhill. In researching the slab my coin is in it appears that the grading of the coin was done in their most conservative period. I read that coins in this slab usually cross over or even be better with a new submission to PCGS. Because I don’t know much about coins I don’t know if this is an accurate grade of the coin or not so I took it to a couple local shops where they both told me it was not AU 50 graded in their opinion and worth much less money than I anticipated. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but I would really like to get some opinions from people that aren’t trying to buy the coin for me and may be more knowledgeable than the people I spoke with. Both shops seem to struggle a bit with appraising it and said some things that just didn’t make sense. The big issue seems to be the front of the coin and the coloring, I’ve also noticed a bit of a mark next to the E on the front of the coin. I don’t know if this is acceptable for this type of coin, or if it’s trash, the back of the coin looks much cleaner, but both sides seem to be in good condition with not a lot of scratches and good strikes, any help would be much appreciated.
I’ve come to the conclusion I. The last couple of days that I’m going to send it in to PCGS for a crossover. I’d love to hear all your opinions on the coin and its grade, thanks 🙏🏽 .
Comments
Welcome to the forum.
The coin looks AU in terms of wear. However, my guess is that it’s been cleaned (or its surfaces altered) to the extent that it won’t receive a straight grade at PCGS.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Don't think it will straight grade.
So if a coin is “cleaned” they won’t grade it?
Correct, it will not get a number grade.
bob
vegas, baby!
I might add that even a cleaned-
AU details grade for this date and mint mark are very much in demand.
As you’ve already determined, it is a semi-key date/mm for this Morgan series.
It’s difficult to tell from photos, but the blotchy obverse side may benefit from some professional conservation?
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Possibly a good restoration candidate?
Should I regrade it at NGC, or somewhere else? Is there any chance this wasn’t cleaned?
Seems weird that the insert is darker at the bottom.
Yes, there is a chance it wasn't cleaned, although it seems likely given @MFeld's extensive experience.
It is notoriously difficult to grade from photos, although your photos are not too bad.
Best is to have someone view it in person, who is trustworthy and has good experience in grading Morgan dollars.
Howdy and welcome.
I don't mean this as a slam at all, but you appear to be a bit overwhelmed and very willing to take the advice of strangers on the internet. Of course, you got very lucky in that the first stranger is @MFeld who happens to be one of the most knowledgeable and honest people in the industry.
The coin may or may not have been cleaned and the surfaces may or may not have been manipulated in the past. We just can't tell given the images. Overall, the images are pretty darn good, but some surface characteristics can't be seen well in them. The most reputable services (PCGS, NGC and the newly formed CACG) all evaluate pieces pretty much similarly for most coins with respect to surface issues and grade, but they do not always agree.
In my opinion, given what you have shared with us, you have two main options. The first is to keep the coin in its current holder, which likely reduces its liquidity, but at least it will have a straight-grade (no notation of cleaning or surface manipulation). The second is to send the coin for a crossover attempt at one of the previously mentioned services. You should be willing to accept a lower grade if you want to cross it over and there might be an option to have them decline a crossover if it would not straight-grade.
Ask detailed questions and knowledgeable folks will help. Good luck!
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What we have is a challenging date CC Morgan in an older PCI Holder that likely dates back to the 1992-95 time frame in terms of when it was graded. We know this because of the pointed font in the numbers- look at the 6 on the reverse. There is a probability that the coin turned after encapsulation. This would not be an uncommon occurrence as it can happen with this type of slab.
The larger question is whether it was cleaned. And while that is possible, I would rather look at the coin in hand and exam the skin to get a better sense of the surfaces before making any decisions. There are options as TomB pointed out. All those options can be explored after you have some help with the surfaces. And in this regard, tilt the coin to look for hairlines; and take a good look to see if there is a what can be described as a crusty original skin on the surfaces. I think it is possible that the coin is merely the victim of the long term reaction of the slab. I am not betting on that one way or the other without an in hand review. I will write that I like my hypothesis and this coin could easily exceed expectations provided that you make no wrong turns in how to proceed.
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That’s not necessarily so. Many cleaned coins receive straight grades, as opposed to details grades. But it’s dependent upon the type and severity of the cleaning and ends up being a judgment call on the part of the grading company.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would try sending for restoration and grading at either PCGS or NGC.
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Kudos to your preparation for this post, no matter what your coin is. Welcome. I would pay the tuition for a nicer looking holder.
The coin, based on the photos, has an unusual appearance. I suspect it may have been stored in a poor environment for many years ( the label on the slab looks aged, something that poor storage would cause). I am not at all sure it has been cleaned. However, it is a coin that must be viewed in-hand. It may just be a coin that does not photograph well.
It is a valuable coin and should still bring good money just as it is. The question you have to ask is "Will conservation and reslabbing add enough value to make such an expenditure wise?" The current holder should be good as far as authentication is concerned and the AU 50 grade seems accurate so far as wear
Authentic CC dollars are an easy sell. If there is a major show near your location it may be wise to take it to the show and get in person opinions/offers..
Mark, I agree with you completely. But, understand that this is a new collector who should never be told that cleaning might be acceptable, in my opinion..
bob
vegas baby!
A lot of good information above. The following are some options:
1) Sell in current holder.
2) Crossover at grade. The coin most likely will get returned to you in same holder and you will have paid for shipping and crossover. TPG's are conservative when grading through plastic.
3) Crossover at any grade. If the coin gets a details grade, it would have been better to sell in current holder as you will pay for crossover and shipping and take a value hit with the details grade.
4) Send in for conservation and grading. Conservation can remove the toning/color on the coin. This may have the most upside, but still has the downside noted in option #3. Conservation does not correct any cleaning or damage on the coin, and can make a cleaning more visible.
Choosing the best option is where the in hand evaluation by a knowledgeable person helps.
Thank you to all that replied and gave their opinion, as this was what I was looking for. I’m not looking to take advice from strangers, but looking to get opinions from people that are coin collectors as I am not and this was my one and only coin that I inherited, and I’m trying to do a deep dive into the world of coin collecting and this particular coin. In doing this, I’ve asked the opinion on two different forums and some people at coin shops and am getting all different types of answers. One answer that does come up is that that particular slab from the era is notorious for causing oxidation in the coin. This coin was my grandfather‘s from the early 90s and has been sitting untouched for the last three decades , I think it’s very possible that the slab caused the weird coloring on the front. Why would someone clean it and have it left looking like that? If someone cleaned it, wouldn’t the whole coin be cleaned? I know these questions might seem stupid, but keep in mind I know absolutely nothing about coins except for what I learned this week . I think I will send it into PCGS first and ask them not to break it out if it doesn’t cross over. And then I will try NGC after that. One thing I’ve learned is that people do not like the company PCI, and are turned off right away as soon as they see it Also feel people see the PCI holder and automatically they think it’s worse because of the companies reputation. Of course, I could be wrong on all of this, but again, thank you for all of your opinions and help.
It’s great that you’re seeking advice from multiple sources and receptive to the various responses.
Your willingness to learn and do best for your grandfather’s memory and coin will serve you well!
As for cleaning; It could be something as localized as friction over a portion of the coin by someone’s thumb or finger, referred to as “thumbing”. Or, abrasions from an eraser, or more subtle- from a jewelers cloth. Some of these mild abrasives, especially the jewelers cloth, leave tiny hairline scratches that can not be well detected in photos and are best visualized with a magnification loupe and lighting from certain angles. It takes a practiced eye to identify these sometimes!
Cleaning comes in many forms and can encompass the entire coin, or only portions, in a variety of degrees and severity.
The reason many very knowledgeable voices have opined that it may appear to have signs of cleaning is from the bright/shiny appearance of the high points of this coins design reliefs. This is often a sign of a coin having been “wiped” in the past. Wiping coins was done often- going way back unfortunately.
Conservation of a coin does not entail these tools. I’ll leave it at that.
It’s impossible to determine whether this coin might be a candidate for that from photos.
I hope this helps.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Before you send the coin to PCGS and/or NGC and spend your money on grading/conservation fees, if possible, it would be good to get an expert in-hand opinion. Please feel free to send me a direct message with your zip code and I’ll see if I can locate a good dealer in your area.
The slab might have contributed to or caused the “weird coloring” and/or the coin might have reacted to a cleaning or improper dipping. Regardless, it’s possible that the entire coin was cleaned or altered, but still ended up with its uneven appearance.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, when I look at the coin, I am not seeing any hairlines or unusually bright spots in the photos that would indicate a cleaning. Please expand on why you think it may have been cleaned.
Cleaning doesn’t always result in conspicuous hairlines - even in hand, and especially not in images.
I suspect/guess cleaning, because to me, the coin’s sheen looks unnatural. It could just be the imaging and I’m by no means, anywhere close to certain.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you for the further explanations, this helps me understand a bit more of what is meant by cleaning. What does it cost to have it conserved? Is this type of work considered cleaning. If it turns out the coin hasn’t been cleaned do you recommend I still try to restore it. I’m ok spending some time and money figuring this out but want to make sure I do the steps in the most efficient order possible. It seems like if the coin was cleaned PGCS wouldn’t grade it even after the restoration? I also tried to take the best pics to post and the lighting may cause an appearance that may be different than what it actually is. I can post some additional pics that are outside in the daylight to see if you guys see anything different.
Message sent with contact information for an excellent dealer who can assess the coin and provide expert suggestions and guidance.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Beware of anyone who uses the fact it is in a PCI holder to denigrate the coin. The coin people in the know are well aware that many early graded PCI green holders are properly graded. The bad-mouthing of the coin because it is in a PCI holder is just part of the routine to get you to sell it cheaply.
The earlier green holder PCI coins were usually better than later, especially the older gold holders. 10 digit holder, was it the 9 digit holder that is better guys? Any of the top four companies could properly conserve and grade the coin, the two top ones PCGS and NGC will take around 2 months on their express tiers, and probably $150 plus shipping; Anacs and ICG would do a similar job, they both have top conservation experts I've heard good things about and the job would probably get done within a month and a half and around $50-$60 for their work and grading. Even as an XF45 that is an expensive coin.
You are quite a bit off on your grading time frame. I've submitted 5 express submissions this year. In my limited experience, conservation adds 1-2 weeks. Otherwise:
Thanks, I was just doing a rough estimate off the top of my head. Looks like they charge 3% of value and are estimating a 4-6 weeks turn around time. Not sure if they have an expedited option as NGC does where for another $50 they conserve them right away: https://www.pcgs.com/restoration