Mexico 8 Reales Grade and Opinion? - UPDATED SPECS

USMC_6115

Would like / appreciate your grade / coin opinion of this 8 Reales... thanks!

bidask

May have been cleaned sometime ago

USMC_6115

VF / XF?

JohnnyCache

xf 45 (edit to add though I too would be inclined to think details graded)

JohnnyCache

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but close enough.

SimonW

XF, cleaned

Clio

XF Tooled imo. There's heavy scrapes in front and behind the portrait.

USMC_6115

@Clio said:
XF Tooled imo. There's heavy scrapes in front and behind the portrait.

I don't see any of that.. I'll post better pics when I have a chance, thanks all!

jgenn

Sorry to be that guy but you have not established enough evidence for us to guess at authenticity. 8 reales in this date range were forged in large quantities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for trade with China. If you care -- and I say this because there are lots of collectors and dealers that will base judgement only on matching the appearance of the obverse and reverse to regal issues -- you should get an accurate weight, ensure that the edge design shows two overlaps at 180 degrees and calculate the coin's specific gravity.

TwoKopeiki

XF40/45 details, but as @jgenn mentioned - there are a number of steps still to take to verify authenticity.

USMC_6115

@jgenn said:
Sorry to be that guy but you have not established enough evidence for us to guess at authenticity. 8 reales in this date range were forged in large quantities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for trade with China. If you care -- and I say this because there are lots of collectors and dealers that will base judgement only on matching the appearance of the obverse and reverse to regal issues -- you should get an accurate weight, ensure that the edge design shows two overlaps at 180 degrees and calculate the coin's specific gravity.

I'll weigh it and check the edge. How do I calculate the specific gravity?

realeswatcher

Sorry to be that guy but you have not established enough evidence for us to guess at authenticity. 8 reales in this date range were forged in large quantities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for trade with China. If you care -- and I say this because there are lots of collectors and dealers that will base judgement only on matching the appearance of the obverse and reverse to regal issues -- you should get an accurate weight, ensure that the edge design shows two overlaps at 180 degrees and calculate the coin's specific gravity.

@jgenn @TwoKopeiki

Guys, we're just generally spreading best practice Good News here and not seeing anything questionable w/this particular piece, right? I don't see any sign of it being a modern numismatic ("Class 3") counterfeit... surfaces aren't perfectly original, but not suspect I don't believe.

I think what is primarily being expressed above is awareness of swamperbob AKA Bob Gurney's research/exposé (which grew out of secondhand insider knowledge) on essentially full silver surreptitious private restrikes (aka counterfeits... but mainly done to proper specs) meant to facilitate trade in China, where 8 Reales were especially preferred. This was particularly profitable when the exchange value of such coinage swelled significantly over the intrinsic silver value.

Long story short, basically the same concept as micro-O Morgans... with the added motivation of a strong Chinese preference for portrait 8 Reales for trade usage.

Bob has proven the whole general idea pretty well, I believe. See his book and 14,837 discussions on CoinCommunity. The problem is:

A - If you don't explain the concept clearly and fully to the uninitiated, people with decent numismatic ability will look at a piece, judge that it looks "good", and dismiss the whole idea out of hand as kooky.

B - Even if you can sell someone on the concept, it's VERY hard to differentiate original late 1700s-early 1800s 8R from these illicit restrikes... frankly, Bob himself doesn't really have a ironclad grasp on picking them apart (the way we generally can with micro-O Morgans at this point). The whole thing frankly needs other 8 Reales collectors who are intellectually capable/willing, REALLY good at studying coins, and can provide a variety of different numismatic expertises - and have the luxury of spending free time on this that they won't be compensated for - to take the torch and expound on Bob's research.

realeswatcher

get an accurate weight, ensure that the edge design shows two overlaps at 180 degrees and calculate the coin's specific gravity.

But keep in mind that these checks may rule out a modern counterfeit... but won't really do much to differentiate original "regal" pieces from SwamperBob's restrikes. Bob makes certain claims about particular traits of the edge pattern on the restrikes (bullion counterfeits)... I think that gets a bit muddled.

TwoKopeiki

@realeswatcher said:

@jgenn @TwoKopeiki

Guys, we're just generally spreading best practice Good News here and not seeing anything questionable w/this particular piece, right? I don't see any sign of it being a modern numismatic ("Class 3") counterfeit... surfaces aren't perfectly original, but not suspect I don't believe.

More or less. At least size, weight and edge images should be included. I'm also not in love with those surfaces. There appears to be a depression at 9 o'clock on the obverse that's likely damage and an odd spot in the field that @Clio pointed out. Even if authentic, i don't think it would straight grade.

USMC_6115

Thanks all! When I have time tomorrow I'll get a weight and measurements and post them up.

JohnnyCache

@Clio said:
XF Tooled imo. There's heavy scrapes in front and behind the portrait.

@TwoKopeiki said:
More or less. At least size, weight and edge images should be included. I'm also not in love with those surfaces....

Clio 2K,

I too felt the surfaces were off but didn't elaborate beyond saying it would be a details coin.
However, since Clio brought up tooling, when I viewed the coin magnified on my screen I thought it had the look of possibly having had a few small chops on the obverse that someone maybe manipulated in an effort to cover them up sort of speak.

The two red circles have marks that remind me of partial chops, while the outlined purple area seems wiped at the very least.

• edit for grammar/spelling

USMC_6115

I don't mind the bumps and bruises on a 225 year old coin. I do mind if it's fake. I'll get back with all the measurements ASAP and if yall say it's a fake, back it goes

jgenn

I think swamperbob made a good argument that bullion forgers cheated on silver content as much as they could get away with so an accurate weight is always a good place to start.

jgenn

@realeswatcher said:

A - If you don't explain the concept clearly and fully to the uninitiated, people with decent numismatic ability will look at a piece, judge that it looks "good", and dismiss the whole idea out of hand as kooky.

B - Even if you can sell someone on the concept, it's VERY hard to differentiate original late 1700s-early 1800s 8R from these illicit restrikes... frankly, Bob himself doesn't really have a ironclad grasp on picking them apart (the way we generally can with micro-O Morgans at this point). The whole thing frankly needs other 8 Reales collectors who are intellectually capable/willing, REALLY good at studying coins, and can provide a variety of different numismatic expertises - and have the luxury of spending free time on this that they won't be compensated for - to take the torch and expound on Bob's research.

Agreed, but it's often hard to tell if the OP is just looking for a "market acceptable" opinion.

USMC_6115

@jgenn said:

@realeswatcher said:

A - If you don't explain the concept clearly and fully to the uninitiated, people with decent numismatic ability will look at a piece, judge that it looks "good", and dismiss the whole idea out of hand as kooky.

B - Even if you can sell someone on the concept, it's VERY hard to differentiate original late 1700s-early 1800s 8R from these illicit restrikes... frankly, Bob himself doesn't really have a ironclad grasp on picking them apart (the way we generally can with micro-O Morgans at this point). The whole thing frankly needs other 8 Reales collectors who are intellectually capable/willing, REALLY good at studying coins, and can provide a variety of different numismatic expertises - and have the luxury of spending free time on this that they won't be compensated for - to take the torch and expound on Bob's research.

Agreed, but it's often hard to tell if the OP is just looking for a "market acceptable" opinion.

I appreciate all your responses here. Like I said, a few bumps, bruises, chops, etc., don't bother me much. Otherwise, I'd have purchased a high grade slabbed version. For this particular purchase I preferred RAW. I didn't pay much for it and it is returnable which I will do if it is believed to be a fake <---deal killer for me.

realeswatcher

A recently observed batch of typical modern numismatic fakes (NOT SwamperBob's bullion restrikes/counterfeits!), including a pair of 1798.

Submitted for study/comparison...

bidask

Who is Swamperbob ?

JohnnyCache

@bidask said:
Who is Swamperbob ?

Swamperbob, his online handle, wrote the book on counterfeit reales.

USMC_6115

Better....or, different pics .
Specs:
Weight: 26.97
Dia: 39.624
Thickness: 2.4

I'm not sure what the edge "overlap" is supposed to look like so I did my best to capture the change I could see

realeswatcher

Portrait 8R planchets (and pillar style b4 that, but using a different design) had their edge pattern applied in two segments. Accordingly, there will be overlaps of those segments 180 degrees apart... I think yours might be around 12 and 6 o'clock looking at your planchet, but wouldn't guess that for certain.

You are showing (1) of the overlaps... In this case, it's a long, sloppy one where the edger let the coin wobble a bit and the segments were misaligned. SwamperBob generally makes the case that such an edge application is typically a sign of those later restrikes... I'm a bit undecided.

I will say with certainty, though, that this piece is NOT a modern numismatic fake... it is "market acceptable" as "genuine". In general, when reading into what Bob has said frankly, you realize ALL Charles IIII Mexico 8R (plus some others) are debatable... but that's a much larger numismatic academic topic and not particular to this one coin.

Aside from that, surfaces/patina look better/more wholesome in these pics.

realeswatcher

@JohnnyCache said:

@bidask said:
Who is Swamperbob ?

Swamperbob, his online handle, wrote the book on counterfeit reales.

We've debated a good amount of points over the years, but I can tell you Bob's knowledge/research is WELL worth consuming for any one who is at least mildly into portrait 8 Reales. Counterfeit 8R - portrait and maybe even more so Cap & Rays - are his 60-year passion... and I can tell you from my years of eBay hawking, he has put his money where his mouth is on acquiring/studying these like NO other.

Aside from illuminating what was essentially lost knowledge about the "unofficial restrikes" - lost b/c it was all surreptitious (really criminal) in nature by definition (again, think micro-O Morgans)..... Bob covers the traditional (and well collected!) contemporary counterfeits which were produced/circulated frequently in the 13 Colonies/early USA, Great Britain, Latin America and beyond.

If you're like the nitwit at the... um, century-plus-old numismatic society where Bob was originally going to publish, who dismissed Bob b/c he looked at the cover plate coin and saw it as plainly genuine (what a joke), you NEED to read this.

He also covers what to look for to detect modern fakes. I could pull about 20 current or recently ended lots from eBay like the group I showed above... many from reasonably respectable sellers, often professional dealers... that pass readily at full market price over and over.

So essentially, you're getting a book on THREE related, yet distinct topics... PLUS tons of pics.

USMC_6115

@realeswatcher Thank you for your time and expertise... much appreciated!

Tunis

As a beginner collector of Portrait 8 Reales, I really appreciate this thread and I realize I have so much more to learn. I typically collect grades 40 to 55, and have been helped tremendously by the board members. Thanks to all

TheGoonies1985

@JohnnyCache said:

@bidask said:
Who is Swamperbob ?

Swamperbob, his online handle, wrote the book on counterfeit reales.

I have this book it is a great book for the price.