Seventies San Francisco Shenanigans 😉
lsica
Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
Possibly another example of Funny Goings On at the Granite Lady (like the 1970 Proof Quarters struck on 1900 Quarters)?
https://coinweek.com/only-known-proof-bicentennial-eisenhower-dollar-major-mint-error/
Philately will get you nowhere....
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Comments
The article reads that the coin was previously unknown and pedigreed to John Devine, but didn’t John pass away a decade ago? The NGC holder doesn’t mention the pedigree. Is there still a core collection of errors from John’s collection that hasn’t been seen/sold yet?
The collector purchased this Ike Dollar and other errors from John Devine in the 70’s.
In this collection were some mint state and proof error coins, and various world errors as well.
John Devine sold these to this collector prior to being listed in his catalogs for sale.
The collector sold his error coins to me. I had NGC authenticate and slab them.
Regarding proof BiCentennial Ike Dollar mint errors- there is a 5% rotated double struck, and a struck clad layer known. But this is the only major mint error known on a proof BiCentennial Dollar.
The double struck proof bicentennial Ike Dollar is the most amazing Ike error coin that I have ever seen.
Simply stunning!
The mint state Ike Dollar overstruck by Cent Dies is owned by a customer. It was not part of the collection from John Devine.
https://minterrornews.com/features-10-15-22-1972-ike-overstruck-twice-with-1972-cent-dies.html
Here are the photos of the Bi-Centennal Double Struck Proof Ike.
It has a great Devine-Byers pedigree!
https://minterrornews.com/issue67.pdf
https://mikebyers.com/6606002-002.html
^
I love how NGC saw fit to award this error with a STAR.
peacockcoins
In my opinion, it is a 64 with very light obverse hairlines. Other than that, it is a deep frosted cameo, has amazing proof fields and has a dramatic visual look. I would have designated it 64+*😁
This is a very interesting coin. Is this the only coin that was double struck by two more more cent dies at the same time?
Of note, it's not mentioned as being in a registry set.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/37033044
What is so cool about these types of coins is the mystery and intrigue behind them not to mention the policing agency is the Secret Service.
These are coins with untold stories behind them which promotes massive speculation about these coins and all major error coins.
John- as far as I can remember, this is it. There are U.S. coins overstruck by Cent Dies ( some one sided, others both sides). But nothing else on an Ike Dollar and nothing else overstruck twice.
Here is an article in Mint Error News regarding Exotic and Intentional U.S. Error Coins in the Marketplace…
https://minterrornews.com/news-11-3-22-exotic-and-intentional-us-error-coins-in-the-marketplace.html
I think Dan Carr overstrikes are more legitimate
Martin
And legal!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
An obvious midnight requisitions that walked out the backdoor. Most likely a mid, on a holiday weekend. Minimal shift and personal on duty.
It's called fraud, waste and abuse on the gov't. Something that would or could be reported to the Mints general counsel or inspector general. Although, maybe it's condoned by Mint management because they know it brings unbelievable attention and publicity to the numismatic community and collectors.
But don't mind me, I'm just jealous I don't have one! 🤣 😂
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Read the article and watch the Fred Weinberg video, on the U.S. Mint’s reaction:
‘Exotic and Intentional U.S. Error Coins In The Marketplace’
One of the most controversial categories of U.S. coins are mint errors. Many dealers and collectors, as well as coin auction houses, buy, sell, trade and auction many rare, exotic and unique major mint errors. Obviously, some of these defy logic and were intentionally created and taken out of the Mint.
In the early 2000's, a group of several hundred U.S. error coins were found in a safe-deposit box. Fred Weinberg purchased this group which included coins struck for proof sets and also coins struck for circulation. This group was auctioned by the California State Controller's Office of Unclaimed Property. The U.S. Secret Service inspected and released this collection to the State of California determining that it was legal to own. The State of California then auctioned the collection and the rest is history.
Another example of U.S. error coins escaping the Mint occurred in the 1970's. A hoard of proof error coins were smuggled out of the San Francisco Mint inside the oil pans of forklifts that were being serviced outside of the Mint. This topic was discussed in the June 6, 2022 Issue of Coin World, which covered Fred Weinberg's account of this story. The Coin World Managing Editor concluded:
Obviously, the marketplace accepts these coins, and some collectors are happy paying thousands of dollars for coins that show every indication of having been created through illegal means.
In Episode 11 of the PCGS video series Slab Lab, Seth Chandler interviews Fred Weinberg. In part 2 of the interview, Fred explains in detail why mint errors that are decades old are not recovered by the U.S. Mint. Fred's recollection of conversations in his office with the Chief of the U.S. Mint Police are extremely insightful and explain why the Mint doesn't attempt to recover error coins from decades ago.
https://minterrornews.com/news-11-3-22-exotic-and-intentional-us-error-coins-in-the-marketplace.html
They ARE NOT error coins, period. The only people that call them "errors" are the people making 6-7 figures off of them and the people buying them who have more money than they know what to do with. It makes no difference to me that the Secret Service doesn't have a problem with them. The planchets were stolen, they were smuggled out, if they were struck on-the-clock that's a theft of public monies in salary. Using mint/government machinery to make them for fraudulent purposes and personal gain HAS to also be a crime. I worked for the federal government and if I had used their property and time to make money for myself, I'd have been fired at best and probably arrested. "Intentionally made errors" is an oxymoron.
You have to think that someone planned on making money off of that. It makes you wonder.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Most of the wild stuff happened 50 years ago.
It happened, it's out there, they are coins struck with USA dies at the mint at the SS could care less about what happened 50 years ago.
They are part of numismatic history and I for one find it all fascinating.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not everyone is a fan of mint errors or specifically, intentionally made errors.
Many dealers and collectors, as well as coin auction houses, buy, sell, trade and auction many rare, exotic and unique major mint errors. Even those that are intentional.
Heritage Auctions, Stacks Bowers, and Great Collections have auctioned intentionally made errors.
Dealers including Fred Weinberg, Jon Sullivan, Andy Lustig, myself and countless others handle them as well.
Feel free to collect what interests you, and enjoy it.
Well said, Chris!
And you summarized it better than I did!
To be fair, "counterfeit coins" would be equally correct or oxymoronic.
Here are two more intentionally made proof mint errors that John Devine sold 50 years ago:
If you're talking to me, I have collected errors since the 70s. Apparently you don't remember me.
It makes no difference how long ago something was stolen, it's still stolen property and by law ALWAYS converts back to the original owner. It happens fairly regularly in the art world. Just because it happened 50 years ago the thief doesn't now own the property,,,,,, unless the original owner says they can, which is apparently what happened here. The US government now says that it's OK to keep property stolen from it and the American people. Don't we all think it's GREAT that people in position can become wealthy off of stolen public property.
And BTW, the names you listed make my point, thank you.
"Genuine counterfeit coin" would be an oxymoron.
"Intentionally made errors is an oxymoron."
What about waffled coins?
They were intentionally made yet escape scrutiny and are labeled as errors by all the major services.
peacockcoins
So, potentially, is counterfeit coin. It's not a coin if it's counterfeit.
You can take "error" or "coin" to indicate what type of itemwas faked, in which case the usage is correct. Or, as you were doing, you take "coin" or "error" to indicate what it was after faking it, in which case it is oxymoronic.
As a type, a double struck coin represents an "error", intentional or accidental. "Error" is the type not the method of manufacture in that context.
I was not specifically directing my post to you, and yes I remember you.
You are correct in stating that the Government ‘says’ that it is ok to deal in these error coins.
The SS and USG released those proof and mint state error coins that were intentionally made 50 years ago.
And I am correct in stating that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not everyone is a fan of mint errors or specifically, intentionally made errors. Others are avid fans, and many intentionally produced error coins have sold from $50k to $200k each.
This includes mules, two headed and two tailed errors, 6 Cents, 1 Nickel and 1 Quarter struck in gold, and also some exotic proof errors.
Collect what interests you.
I worked for the federal government as well. You are absolutely correct Mike. Plus, you have integrity!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Waffled coins were sold as scrap. That's why they escape scrutiny. They are collected, predominantly by error collectors, but they are not errors. Error collectors have always, or at least in the old days, been interested in the minting process. Because of that have collected dies, collars, etc. They even collect blanks and planchets, which are also not mint errors.
I'm not sure why the TPGs label them as "errors", unless they were error coins that were waffled. Waffled coins are canceled, or officially defaced. They are collectable as exonumia but to be honest I'm not sure how a TPG can be absolutely certain that they were officially waffled.
As for "escaping scrutiny", there is no scrutiny to be applied. They were officially cancelled and sold as scrap (or sold as scrap and waffled as required, whichever comes first).
I respectfully disagree with your last statement.
If I tell you I saw a counterfeit the other day, unless I add the word coin, or Air Jordan Shoes, or a brand named high priced purse, or any of thousands of other items, we couldn't have a conversation about it.
I respect you Mike, but I guess we'll just disagree.
I guess crime does pay. That has a lot to do with the "smash and grab" that's going on in this country today. And who does it hurt, the ones paying higher prices to make up for the loss. Oh!! Wait a minute!! I can just buy it at a fraction of the retail price on eBay when it's sold by the thieves.
Wasn't the dual head to head alignment of cent dies the norm for minting back then? Two dies-one strike=two coins. The label would then state 'overstruck once by two dies'. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Here is the 5th known 2001D Cent/Dime Mule in the upcoming Heritage Platinum Auction:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/2001-d-lincoln-cent-muled-with-a-roosevelt-dime-reverse-ms66-red-pcgs/p/1371-75001.s
Mint Error is just a classification.
It works for 99.99 percent of true mint error coins and .01 percent of intentional mint error coins.
It is just a classification.
Where do you draw the line if you separated out mint errors into two categories?
As to people making money on crime. I do not condone it. Whomever did it is probably dead, senile or in a retirement home. Have fun going after them.
Same with "error".
It's not a "coin" at all if it is counterfeit. I just think it's unnecessarily picayune and inconsistent to object to "intentional error" and not "counterfeit coin". I'm fine with both being used as we all know what they mean.
I'm just an outsider looking in.
Yes, like @ctf_error_coins said: "and I agree" they are fascinating. It takes real skill and imagination for a mint employee to come up with something like this.
or this:
You think just because a TPG'ers writes ERROR on a label, means that it's a real mint error and happened DURING the minting process?? It tells me they take the general public and many collectors for fools!
@Byers:
@MWallace is talking about the inception and history of "true" mint error coins and the fraud that's taking place today in the "FABRICATED" mint error community.
Like Fred said; he knows the difference between an intentionally fabricated piece and a legitimate mint error.
Hey, I'm a capitalist. I believe in the free market. It's all about the Benjamins, right? You, Fred, Jon, TPG'ers and auction houses are making money. I have no problem with that. Just be honest. Are you guys putting disclaimers on the "intentionally fabricated" pieces you're selling?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
As they are tolerated in the market the ethical thing to do is to be transparent and honest to prospective bidders/ buyers.
Auction companies and sellers just need to be forthright and candid that they are not errors or a "bad day at the Mint" IMO.
Oakstar….and Fathom…
EVERY major proof mint error that I sell, and any mint state error that was obviously intentional, whether on my website, or ebay store:
https://mikebyers.com/rarecoins.html
https://www.ebay.com/str/mikebyersinc?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=7LKztoWOQ-C&sssrc=3418065&ssuid=7LKztoWOQ-C&widget_ver=artemis&media=SMS
Has this section included in each listing AND a link to the video if on my website, or if it’s on ebay it has that section but no link since links aren’t allowed.
Additionally, each listing, whether on mike byers or ebay, has in a paragraph, depending on the wording of that specific proof error coin…. ‘Intentional’ or ‘intentionally struck’ or ‘intentionally produced’.
This is one of my favorites since 1972S proof Kennedy Halves were only struck in clad, not silver!
I don't think anyone was accusing you of being less than 100% forthcoming... at least I hope not.
I personally have difficulty comparing these "after-hours" mint errors with the smash and grab crimes taking place today.
That's just me.
peacockcoins
I didn’t take it as an accusation.
Thank you for your comment.
I was just letting everyone know that I disclose if it was intentional in the text, provide the intentional section and link to Fred’s video.
At that point moving forward, if a dealer or customer still chooses to purchase an intentional 50 year old mint error for $10k or $100k, I obviously have them.
The most important thing is that the buyer understands how it was produced.
Got to play with this several years back.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
messydesk-
Was it in the NGC single slabs or the PCGS multi-holder?
Maybe the grading companies should raise their ethical standard not to label those intentionally made coins as Mint Error since they’re not an error at all. It is still ok to grade them but the insert should be different than the real Mint Error.
Jt88
If it’s blatently obvious that it’s an intentional mint error, NGC does not put mint error on the tag.
My 3 piece clover of Ike Dollars on Dime blanks, selling in Heritage for a record $105k, did not say mint error on the tag.
Here’s another NGC without ‘Mint Error’
That's the exact problem I'm having Mike. You're still calling it an intentional mint error! It's NOT a mint error if it's intentional.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )