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Recent purchase - Counterfeit CBH coins

Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭✭

Recently, Stacks had some counterfeit CBH coins that they sold. These coins were listed as counterfeit and were not slabbed. I got an 1823, 1833 and 1838.

All 3 coins had edges that were just plain wrong.

The 1838 had a lettered edge, but is supposed to have a reeded edge.

The 1833 had a messed up edge. It wasn’t lettered or with reed. Just messed up. Supposed to have lettered edge.

The 1823 was the best of the bunch at least at first blush. The edge was close but among the few letters there were S I N. Go figure.

I will try to post some photos in next few days.

Comments

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why did they sell counterfeit coins? What verifying info was associated with each fake? Looking forward to your pics.

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Assume these were contemporary counterfeit bust halves, which are highly collectible.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you want to know more about the contemporary counterfeit halves there is a book by Keith Davignon on them. The second edition is the current issue.

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,374 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are the 3 lots they sold…

  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,488 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Contemporary counterfeits are avidly bought, sold and collected and there is a tremendous reference work on the issues by Keith Davignon. These are a great niche.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,178 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The closing prices on those lots seem low as to compared to past sales of these. I'd think each would have done better if sold as single lots instead of in groupings.

    peacockcoins

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    Recently, Stacks had some counterfeit CBH coins that they sold. These coins were listed as counterfeit and were not slabbed. I got an 1823, 1833 and 1838.

    All 3 coins had edges that were just plain wrong.

    The 1838 had a lettered edge, but is supposed to have a reeded edge.

    The 1833 had a messed up edge. It wasn’t lettered or with reed. Just messed up. Supposed to have lettered edge.

    The 1823 was the best of the bunch at least at first blush. The edge was close but among the few letters there were S I N. Go figure.

    I will try to post some photos in next few days.

    Did you pay for the counterfeit coins with counterfeit money, lol? 😂

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    The closing prices on those lots seem low as to compared to past sales of these. I'd think each would have done better if sold as single lots instead of in groupings.

    Although you are certainly correct, Stack's assembles their lots with a target minimum price.

    "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
    BHNC #AN-10
    JRCS #1606

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,178 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They're leaving money on the table not only against themselves but also their loyal consigners.

    peacockcoins

  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,749 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    They're leaving money on the table not only against themselves but also their loyal consigners.

    I totally agree. The consigner most likely done better at Great Collections on these. Ebay is funny about contemporary counterfeits and may or may not allow the listings. I did not know about these being offered. I would have bid higher myself!

    image
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the forgeries are more interesting than the originals sometimes. Some of them are fairly crude with lettering, milled edges etc - amazing to think that the people who created them passed them.

    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • habaracahabaraca Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭✭✭

    one of the few I have left...

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    Did you pay for the counterfeit coins with counterfeit money, lol? 😂

    Even worse, he used a check that bounced!!

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HerbT for contemporary counterfeits, those first two are full of detail and eye appealing! Thanks for sharing those.

    "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
    BHNC #AN-10
    JRCS #1606

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ICG actually offered to buy one of my counterfeit Bust halves for their educational work.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That counterfeit 1823 is very well made!

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely some > @Walkerguy21D said:

    That counterfeit 1823 is very well made!

    Maybe a little to well?
    Inclined to think it a modern counterfeit.
    Davignon number?

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem said:
    Definitely some > @Walkerguy21D said:

    That counterfeit 1823 is very well made!

    Maybe a little to well?
    Inclined to think it a modern counterfeit.
    Davignon number?

    1-A

    "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
    BHNC #AN-10
    JRCS #1606

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I tried to get photos of the edges, but easier said than done. The 1823 had the best edge of the 3. However, there was an area on the edge that looked like the metal had been bunched up (how it might look if it had been hanging from a chain, but clearly wasn’t). I haven’t seen an edge like that on any of the CBH I have or even looked at.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rec78 said:
    ... The consigner most likely done better at Great Collections on these. ...

    My understanding is that Great Collections only sells coins slabbed by PCGS, NGC and ANACS.
    And I believe none of these slabbing companies will (knowingly) slab a counterfeit coin.

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2023 4:49PM

    Well I'll be darned...
    Haven't seen CC busties look that close to what they're supposed to.

    @jacrispies said:

    @jayPem said:
    Definitely some > @Walkerguy21D said:

    That counterfeit 1823 is very well made!

    Maybe a little to well?
    Inclined to think it a modern counterfeit.
    Davignon number?

    1-A

    @Herb_T said:
    I tried to get photos of the edges, but easier said than done. The 1823 had the best edge of the 3. However, there was an area on the edge that looked like the metal had been bunched up (how it might look if it had been hanging from a chain, but clearly wasn’t). I haven’t seen an edge like that on any of the CBH I have or even looked at.

    You won't.
    These were made way back in the day by coiners with pretty rudimentary equipment and skills.
    That's why the 1823 above threw me off.. most won't look anywhere as legit as this one.
    At least one of the CC's you picked up must be pretty valuable or I doubt you would have had to pay what you paid to win the lot.
    @jacrispies can probably help you identify which one and how nice of a score it is...

  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem said:
    Definitely some > @Walkerguy21D said:

    That counterfeit 1823 is very well made!

    Maybe a little to well?
    Inclined to think it a modern counterfeit.
    Davignon number?

    As mentioned it is the 1-A for the year.

    DEFINATELY NOT modern. If you go back decades these have been misidentified as trial strikes or patterns in the past. Bust half expert, Stewart Witham, wrote about them in the Numismatic Scrapbook magazine in the 1960’s.

    I purchased my first one in the 1970’s from someone who had sent it to ANACS thinking it was a die trial.

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A pst script to my previous post.

    There is an 1825 that is just as deceptive. I remember a story that a dealer had one get through one of the major services some years ago. Thought it was a new die marriage for the series but is a Davignon 1-A for 1825.

    Other very deceptive fakes are known for 1832 and 1833. If you want to know more see Keith Davignon and my presentation in the ANS’s COAC, Coinage of the Americas Conference on contemporary counterfeits from, I believe, 1998.

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is an 1825 that is just as deceptive. I remember a story that a dealer had one get through one of the major services some years ago. Thought it was a new die marriage for the series but is a Davignon 1-A for 1825.

    Unfortunately this one no longer resides with me.


    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.

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