Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show........

DoubleEagle59

Stay in the car and go home!! (or drive to the closest police station).

https://canadiancoinnews.com/dealer-loses-an-estimated-500k-in-post-show-theft/

1madman

Interesting that he left his daughter in the car as the thieves tried the 1st break-in. Lucky he didn’t get involved in a kidnapping/hostage situation. He made many poor decisions that day, and I’d say he and his family are lucky to be alive.

Mizzou

Probably a good thing that it happened at a rest stop. A home invasion would have been worse.

MFeld

“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

OAKSTAR

In any event, I'd say it was very poor OPSEC.

Project Numismatics

So terrible. I can’t imagine how difficult this must be for Mr. Liem and family. Thankful that no one was physically hurt.

JBK

I do like that he had a tracker in one of the cases. Apparently the thieves found it. Maybe next time use two, and hopefully they'll stop looking after they find the first one.

DoubleEagle59

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

MFeld

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, it sounds like the trip might have been several hours, as the second stop was three hours after the first one.

PerryHall

@MFeld said:

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, it sounds like the trip might have been several hours, as the second stop was three hours after the first one.

Carry an empty milk jug to pee in or wear an adult diaper. The thieves may have put a tracking device on his car.

renomedphys

I’m a vestpocket dealer and collector and I don’t set up at shows. That said, I have been known to carry a fair amount of inventory. At the FUN show in 2019, I would swear I was being followed for a LONG WAY, but I suppose it could have been just somebody trailing me out of the parking lot, onto the freeway, and north up the turnpike past Ocala. They weren’t right behind me, but I did keep seeing the same car OVER and OVER. I lost sight of them in Ocala and never saw the car again.

The long and short is that the OP is right. Keep a full tank of gas and try to make it home in one shot.

TomB

@MFeld said:

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, it sounds like the trip might have been several hours, as the second stop was three hours after the first one.

Montreal to Toronto is about 340-miles and takes about 6hr30min. In my opinion, that distance (time and miles) should not require a lapse in security protocol. A full tank of gas and snacks should get someone through and if it doesn't get the family through then they shouldn't be with him. My opinion only.

ScarsdaleCoin

@TomB said:

@MFeld said:

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, it sounds like the trip might have been several hours, as the second stop was three hours after the first one.

Montreal to Toronto is about 340-miles and takes about 6hr30min. In my opinion, that distance (time and miles) should not require a lapse in security protocol. A full tank of gas and snacks should get someone through and if it doesn't get the family through then they shouldn't be with him. My opinion only.

While I agree with you about not stopping I have to add that after working a full day show including set up and breakdown he might have added 6,8,10 hours before the trip. Dealers are only human and many dealers are also older needing more frequent stops. The mistake would have been to be in a very public area with two of the 3 people staying with the car or driving it around the parking lot while one person at a time went inside.

TheGoonies1985

Would have been safer to take a taxi to the airport then fly back home and a taxi to your house. Or go to your bank and deposit the coins then go home. At least the airport has cameras and security all over the place.

jesbroken

Were I to be a major dealer and traveling to and from coin shows with cash and/or merchandise, I most certainly would not take family who could become endangered, I would after traveling for 10 minutes or so, I would slow down and let traffic pass me and if a car in back ground stayed behind me, I would go to the nearest police station, I would also have a good quality forward and rearward dash cam to record a suspicious car. Most thefts could have been avoided with a little common sense(somewhat lacking these days). Regardless of the size of your business or the location, you are a major target and should prepare accordingly. I would imagine someone with $500k of merchandise and cash could have afforded an off duty policeman to accompany them on their trip. Just my opinion.
Jim

TheGoonies1985

To many of these happen I mean at some point dealers simply have to be smarter and use other methods of travel like a train and taxi afterwards. Never ever leave your coins at home use a bank safety deposit box.

TomB

@ScarsdaleCoin said:

@TomB said:

@MFeld said:

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, it sounds like the trip might have been several hours, as the second stop was three hours after the first one.

Montreal to Toronto is about 340-miles and takes about 6hr30min. In my opinion, that distance (time and miles) should not require a lapse in security protocol. A full tank of gas and snacks should get someone through and if it doesn't get the family through then they shouldn't be with him. My opinion only.

While I agree with you about not stopping I have to add that after working a full day show including set up and breakdown he might have added 6,8,10 hours before the trip. Dealers are only human and many dealers are also older needing more frequent stops. The mistake would have been to be in a very public area with two of the 3 people staying with the car or driving it around the parking lot while one person at a time went inside.

I've done plenty of these shows as well and have been set up for days and then broken down and driven from Chicago to New England as well as Orlando to New England (straight through) and have never put myself in that position.

retirednow

@MFeld said:

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@MFeld said:
“Why do dealers have to make a stop after leaving a coin show......”

In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

Fill up the tank before the show and go to the can before you leave the show.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, it sounds like the trip might have been several hours, as the second stop was three hours after the first one.

Yeap - Montreal to Toronto is about 7 hour drive ... long with a child in the car.

MFeld

@PillarDollarCollector said:
To many of these happen I mean at some point dealers simply have to be smarter and use other methods of travel like a train and taxi afterwards. Never ever leave your coins at home use a bank safety deposit box.

A lot of dealers carry a large inventory that they couldn’t transport safely, if at all, in a taxi or train.

Glen2022

And unfortunately, it appears that most of the items stolen are not traceable, bullion and currency , if no record of serial numbers, in particular.

TheGoonies1985

@MFeld said:

@PillarDollarCollector said:
To many of these happen I mean at some point dealers simply have to be smarter and use other methods of travel like a train and taxi afterwards. Never ever leave your coins at home use a bank safety deposit box.

A lot of dealers carry a large inventory that they couldn’t transport safely, if at all, in a taxi or train.

I mean there has to be a solution that is safer.

291fifth

The man coming up to the car and checking the door should have been an immediate and major red flag. Unfortunately, that red flag was ignored.

OAKSTAR

@OAKSTAR said:
In any event, I'd say it was very poor OPSEC.

Always change your mode of travel.
Always change your route of travel.
Always change your time of travel.
Always be aware of your surroundings.
Travel with other guys. NOT your wife a kid........Jeeezzzz 👎🏻

Here's a couple of other options:

rte592

Might be wise to rent a car?
If tracked would end up back at the rental place when you had someone else bring you your regular car.
Sounds like a dealer needs more thank one person involved in longer trips.
Also the security at these venues seems to be Lacking.

OAKSTAR

@rte592 said:
Also the security at these venues seems to be Lacking.

Most of the security at the big venues are fine. It's as soon as you step outside, are when the problems start.

bronzemat

Gotta load up on mustard packets, since they were used up, during the shows.

TxCollector

Does Hugh Wood’s higher level of insurance offer protection against loss when you are transporting to and from shows?

Tom147

My security is Springfield Armory. in .45

DoubleEagle59

@Tom147 said:
My security is Springfield Armory. in .45

I believe King Trudeau has outlawed these in Canada.

Can't have pepper spray or a knife or anything to defend yourself.

You just have to rely on your good Canadian manners and when you're accosted, you say "thank-you sir for the robbery, here,,,,,,,, you can have everything."

TheGoonies1985

@OAKSTAR said:

@OAKSTAR said:
In any event, I'd say it was very poor OPSEC.

Always change your mode of travel.
Always change your route of travel.
Always change your time of travel.
Always be aware of your surroundings.
Travel with other guys. NOT your wife a kid........Jeeezzzz 👎🏻

Here's a couple of other options:

Yeah not in Canada good luck getting a gun license for handguns and even better luck getting a carrying permit. Only criminals here have those rights. Even if you get a handgun legally up here you can only follow a map to a shooting range can't deviate at all from that route same way back. That is all you are allowed to do up here in Canada then back in your home safe with locks on each gun and ammo needs to be separate.

You ever fall mentally ill they can revoke your license so fast your head will spin. And you will never get it back. I guess that could be a good thing for serious mental health problems.

You can't even own smaller sized guns even with a license the barrel must be a certain length. You need to be a member of a gun shooting range as well. And take a few courses to boot.

Tom147

@DoubleEagle59 said:

@Tom147 said:
My security is Springfield Armory. in .45

I believe King Trudeau has outlawed these in Canada.

Can't have pepper spray or a knife or anything to defend yourself.

You just have to rely on your good Canadian manners and when you're accosted, you say "thank-you sir for the robbery, here,,,,,,,, you can have everything."

That's a good reason for me not to attend shows in Canada. I love the country, beautiful scenery. Just can't go where I'm not allowed to defend myself. Same for Chicago & New York.

OAKSTAR

@PillarDollarCollector - Come to America! 🇺🇸 😂 🤣

PeakRarities

@jeffas1974 said:
Does Hugh Wood’s higher level of insurance offer protection against loss when you are transporting to and from shows?

Yes, the Gold level covers you pretty much anywhere. However, that would probably be voided by leaving the coins unattended in a vehicle.

This is why I love attending shows in Florida, where I feel much more comfortable in transit with my trusty sidekick in arms reach.

TomB

@jeffas1974 said:
Does Hugh Wood’s higher level of insurance offer protection against loss when you are transporting to and from shows?

I've used HWI for years and there are various levels of insurance that one can purchase. In my experience HWI, and other insurers, utilize what is often called an unattended vehicle exclusion clause in their policies when one is transporting their own inventory in their vehicle. That is, if you are traveling with your inventory and you are either in, next to or can somehow physically touch your vehicle then the inventory in the vehicle is covered. However, if you get out of the vehicle for dinner, to use a rest room, to visit a friend, etc... and leave the inventory in the vehicle then the inventory is not covered during that period.

I don't know what insurance policy the dealer might have had and don't know the level of coverage so this might not have applied in this case.

skier07

I’m a simpleton but if I was traveling with $500k of inventory it would never go unattended.

291fifth

@Tom147 said:
My security is Springfield Armory. in .45

This was in Canada. Do you have any knowledge of Canadian gun laws?

alaura22

They have a saying here in Utah, even grandma is carring!!!

Cougar1978

I never stop unless go thru drive thru way down road sure not being followed. Local shows hour trip so that’s not a factor. Obey traffic laws. A friend in the biz (gold coin dealer) said having $500k plus in coins on him traveling very stressful especially airports. Never let your stuff out of sight or let yourself be distracted. If somebody trying create distraction / situation where you would be separated from your inventory resist / block it. Even if they think your a jerk. You don’t owe them anything, your inventory is everything. Don’t mention your a coin dealer just BS them w something else (bus or plane) if they asking what you do. Keep doors locked! At shows keep cases locked if leaving table. Never let somebody reach in your cases. If they not buying they may just be there to steal.

TheGoonies1985

@alaura22 said:
They have a saying here in Utah, even grandma is carring!!!

Not even allowed to carry a knife that is not for some type of use other than self defence up here in Canada. You have to make sure if you do all people can see it otherwise you can face serious issues with the law.

It is either good or bad I am not sure to be honest. My city if mostly safe for its size. Never had anyone pull a weapon on me or anyone I know. Criminals fight mostly between themselves. And common sens stay in at night and if you have to go out stay away from the worst 5% of places the remainder are safe for the most part.

There are larger cities like Toronto that do have some seriously bad areas but again nothing compared to to some places in the USA. Not even close. Same for Vancouver's East end is one of the worst if not the worst up here. But if you live in Vancouver you can simply avoid it.

braddick

A man leaves home on foot one evening, makes three left turns and arrives back home to find two masked men waiting there. Who are they?

TheGoonies1985

Shootings in Canada are minimal maybe a few every day not bad for 40 million people. But those shootings are gangs fighting each other 95% of the time. It is mostly peaceful I would say.

alaura22

@PillarDollarCollector said:

@alaura22 said:
They have a saying here in Utah, even grandma is carring!!!

Not even allowed to carry a knife that is not for some type of use other than self defence up here in Canada. You have to make sure if you do all people can see it otherwise you can face serious issues with the law.

It is either good or bad I am not sure to be honest. My city if mostly safe for its size. Never had anyone pull a weapon on me or anyone I know. Criminals fight mostly between themselves. And common sens stay in at night and if you have to go out stay away from the worst 5% of places the remainder are safe for the most part.

There are larger cities like Toronto that do have some seriously bad areas but again nothing compared to to some places in the USA. Not even close. Same for Vancouver's East end is one of the worst if not the worst up here. But if you live in Vancouver you can simply avoid it.

Like it was mentioned before, I won't live where I can't defend myself or have the right too
I'm also not sure whos better off, but I know for sure, I at least have a fighting chance.

GoldFinger1969

@MFeld said:
In this case, for gas and a bathroom break.

If they can't make it home in a straight line, they should probably leave in pairs with another dealer or trusted friend who can sit in their car or watch it if they have to stop.

This has happened so often that I am surprised the people in charge of the show have not notified newcomers and new dealers that this is increasing in occurrence and to take precautions.

Cougar1978

One needs practice good security traveling with inventory. The bigger the inventory the more likelihood of being followed. Especially gold coins. While Sam has all his gold coins in online store he may not bring more than half dozen to show. Both for security reasons and it takes retail buyers with pocket. He goal move lower ticket material at good margins. For the gold coins he has a number of private retail clients. Be cognizant upon leaving the show if being followed. Be sure have a full tank if long trip. Leaving inventory unattended like stopping to eat a no go. I believe the riskiest can be when moving inventory between car and bourse room. Do it in one trip and look around for any potential threats.

nencoin

Insurance coverage will vary. We are technically covered if the vehicle is locked, the windows closed, and the inventory secured in the trunk or under some kind of cover in an SUV. Other policies will require someone to be in direct contact with the vehicle.

Regardless of our unattended vehicle clause, I would never leave inventory in my car. Ever.

UpGrayedd

@braddick said:
A man leaves home on foot one evening, makes three left turns and arrives back home to find two masked men waiting there. Who are they?

The home plate umpire and the catcher.