eBay Artificial Intelligence Fails to Identify Counterfeit Coins

IkesT

This afternoon, I reported the listing below to eBay for counterfeit coins. This was the third listing of counterfeit Morgan dollars by the same seller after two other rounds of listings had been removed:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/176064317217

.
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I've just received the response below informing me that my report has been dismissed "using automation or artificial intelligence":

Attn: @burfle23

PeakRarities

Reported

IkesT

@DeplorableDan said:
Reported

Thanks - it will be interesting to hear if you get the same response!

fluffy155

I got the same response.

IkesT

@fluffy155 said:
I got the same response.

Very interesting - thank you!

PeakRarities

I haven’t gotten a response as of yet, will update when I do.

AlanSki

Does their business model really incentivize themselves to care?

Manifest_Destiny

Reported

IkesT

@AlanSki said:
Does their business model really incentivize themselves to care?

I don't know, but I would like to know what they are doing. The email responses they're sending out are certainly new, but exactly what else has changed? They haven't provided any details. It's a real concern that they appear to have taken an ineffective reporting system and made it even worse.

may

Reported.

PeakRarities

Looks like the listing got nuked and i never got the ai message.

logger7

Back to the AI drawing board for them I guess. There is no substitute for human visual acuity and thought.

slider23

At the bottom of the letter from eBay it notes: Attn: @burfle23. Did eBay send the listing to burfle23 for counterfeit conformation?

IkesT

@slider23 said:
At the bottom of the letter from eBay it notes: Attn: @burfle23. Did eBay send the listing to burfle23 for counterfeit conformation?

No, that was my addition so that he would see the thread.

SilverPlatinum

@AlanSki said:
Does their business model really incentivize themselves to care?

I totally agree with you

MFeld

@AlanSki said:
Does their business model really incentivize themselves to care?

That depends on one’s definition of “really incentivize themselves to care”.
They apparently care enough to remove a lot of listings, though not nearly as many as I wish they would.

I also reported the listing earlier today, and received the same response as others.

johnny9434

they get barred they come back as someone else, it a shame

burfle23

Response I received...

IkesT

@burfle23 said:
Response I received...

Thanks - I received the "We're looking into it" message from eBay about 20 minutes before receiving the "Decision" message.

burfle23

Well, I eventually got the same response as you on an obviously bad 1804 dollar:

Not good for the Bay or buyers if this is the future direction...

IkesT

@burfle23 said:
Not good for the Bay or buyers if this is the future direction...

That certainly does not bode well!

messydesk

"Not in violation of our policy."

So their policy is now to aid and abet trafficking of counterfeit coins. Gotcha.

jmlanzaf

What's the big deal? They don't look at every complaint with a human eye. Thank God! Do you know what that would cost?

"Automation" might simply mean that multiple complaints get automatically removed or something like that.

"AI" has always been used to do keyword searches and the like.

I see no change in how many (or few) listings get taken down. The only thing that seems new is the email response.

Dropdaflag

Lesson : Unless you are an expert, do not buy raw coins, and watch out for counterfeit slabs!

TwoSides2aCoin

caveat emptor

Ebay can do no wrong.

TwoSides2aCoin

The posse lives !

YQQ

Very interesting, But
what is the position of the LAW????
Specifically for repeat offenders?
Is Feebay making good on already sold items?
H

lkenefic

@YQQ said:
Very interesting, But
what is the position of the LAW????
Specifically for repeat offenders?
Is Feebay making good on already sold items?
H

Until enough people recognize they've been swindled into buying a counterfeit coin and initiate action to get money back from ebay... it will continue. It will continue at least until ebay calculates the "tipping point" where enough people have that epiphany versus those that remain blissfully ignorant (until they go to sell...)

MFeld

@jmlanzaf said:
What's the big deal? They don't look at every complaint with a human eye. Thank God! Do you know what that would cost?

"Automation" might simply mean that multiple complaints get automatically removed or something like that.

"AI" has always been used to do keyword searches and the like.

I see no change in how many (or few) listings get taken down. The only thing that seems new is the email response.

If the AI option results in such woefully poor results, what’s the point in using it at all?

may

Finally!

burfle23

Yea, reported through a different channel...

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:
What's the big deal? They don't look at every complaint with a human eye. Thank God! Do you know what that would cost?

"Automation" might simply mean that multiple complaints get automatically removed or something like that.

"AI" has always been used to do keyword searches and the like.

I see no change in how many (or few) listings get taken down. The only thing that seems new is the email response.

If the AI option results in such woefully poor results, what’s the point in using it at all?

I don't think they are claimngi to have used AI. It was an "or" not an "and". They pull listings based on keywords and listing violations as well as things like counterfeits. I'm not sure there is any AI software available to determine counterfeit coins. The form letter received does not include any specific information on the posters complaint.

jmlanzaf

@YQQ said:
Very interesting, But
what is the position of the LAW????
Specifically for repeat offenders?
Is Feebay making good on already sold items?
H

Does the law make the marketplace responsible for the sellers using it? To wit, is Facebook responsible for activity in its marketplace? Is your local flea market responsible for all activity in its marketplace? Is a mall operator responsible for the individual stores? I think the answer to all those questions is currently "no" despite some failed legislative attempts in the last few years.

MFeld

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:
What's the big deal? They don't look at every complaint with a human eye. Thank God! Do you know what that would cost?

"Automation" might simply mean that multiple complaints get automatically removed or something like that.

"AI" has always been used to do keyword searches and the like.

I see no change in how many (or few) listings get taken down. The only thing that seems new is the email response.

If the AI option results in such woefully poor results, what’s the point in using it at all?

I don't think they are claimngi to have used AI. It was an "or" not an "and". They pull listings based on keywords and listing violations as well as things like counterfeits. I'm not sure there is any AI software available to determine counterfeit coins. The form letter received does not include any specific information on the posters complaint.

Then I’ll ask the same question about whatever they’re using, other than the human eye - what’s the point?

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:
What's the big deal? They don't look at every complaint with a human eye. Thank God! Do you know what that would cost?

"Automation" might simply mean that multiple complaints get automatically removed or something like that.

"AI" has always been used to do keyword searches and the like.

I see no change in how many (or few) listings get taken down. The only thing that seems new is the email response.

If the AI option results in such woefully poor results, what’s the point in using it at all?

I don't think they are claimngi to have used AI. It was an "or" not an "and". They pull listings based on keywords and listing violations as well as things like counterfeits. I'm not sure there is any AI software available to determine counterfeit coins. The form letter received does not include any specific information on the posters complaint.

Then I’ll ask the same question about whatever they’re using, other than the human eye - what’s the point?

The point is to get as many "problem" listings pulled as possible for as low a cost as possible. Let's not be too coin-centric here. List anything from Cuba and you'll find it pulled within 24 hours thanks to the AI. The AI is cued to the word Cuba as well as other alternate spellings and keywords (Havana, for example). They do not have good tools to pull fake listings of anything from coins to Coach bags based on blurry pictures and generic titles and descriptions.

Is this a shortcoming? Sure. On the other hand, caveat emptor. I do not want eBay to go away because we expect them to police the un-policeable. They could, I suppose, switch to only using certified vendors. That might be good for me but bad for a lot of other folks on this forum.

IkesT

@jmlanzaf - You are getting hung up on minutiae and missing the forest for the trees. I take it you are not actively engaged in reporting counterfeits, so I would not expect you to be aware of the details.

You asked "What's the big deal?". The big deal is that eBay fails to remove most counterfeit coins even when they are directly reported by users. That was true in the past and is still true now, regardless of how their system for dealing with reports has changed.

In the past, it appeared that eBay required multiple reports on a particular listing to take action and remove it. This was an ineffective system, as it made counterfeit removal largely inaccessible to anyone outside of a group like the Forum that could organize reports en masse.

Now, based on the new email messages from eBay, they appear to be making determinations based on every individual report - and rejecting all of them (at least all of those reported through the normal channel by regular users). As I described, I received a rejection notification from eBay about 20 minutes after reporting the OP listing, which indicates to me that they are no longer even waiting to receive multiple reports in order to make a determination.

The concern is that they've taken an ineffective system and made it even less effective (if effective at all). That's a big deal.

jmlanzaf

@IkesT said:
@jmlanzaf - You are getting hung up on minutiae and missing the forest for the trees. I take it you are not actively engaged in reporting counterfeits, so I would not expect you to be aware of the details.

You asked "What's the big deal?". The big deal is that eBay fails to remove most counterfeit coins even when they are directly reported by users. That was true in the past and is still true now, regardless of how their system for dealing with reports has changed.

In the past, it appeared that eBay required multiple reports on a particular listing to take action and remove it. This was an ineffective system, as it made counterfeit removal largely inaccessible to anyone outside of a group like the Forum that could organize reports en masse.

Now, based on the new email messages from eBay, they appear to be making determinations based on every individual report - and rejecting all of them (at least all of those reported through the normal channel by regular users). As I described, I received a rejection notification from eBay about 20 minutes after reporting the OP listing, which indicates to me that they are no longer even waiting to receive multiple reports in order to make a determination.

The concern is that they've taken an ineffective system and made it even less effective (if effective at all). That's a big deal.

You are ignoring the trees for the forests. They get thousands of reports per day, not all of them accurate. It takes time to sort through them and even then they lack the expertise to make some of the determinations.

Look at the threads just on this forum. You have experienced people asking about coins that others think are obvious fakes. You have listings that the forum is split on.

The only change I see is that they now send you an email. We have no evidence that the process has changed at all. Just because they didn't end the auction on the first report doesn't mean it wasn't recorded. In fact, did the listing you complained about not actually get ended during the existence of this thread?

It's been this way for years. You can care as little or as much as you wish.

burfle23

To me, the email now sent noting the decision that was made, incorrectly in the posted examples here, is just bizarre and does not help eBay's reputation nor promote confidence in the process. Enough of those and if I were just reporting through those channels I would probably give up- don't think that is their intent, but who knows.

I don't think anyone "complained about the listing", or even the outcome, just the strange Bay response.

And I don't confuse the fact some listings were removed during this conversation as indicating the bots got wiser from the report later and addressed the listings...

WCC

@logger7 said:
Back to the AI drawing board for them I guess. There is no substitute for human visual acuity and thought.

That's because it isn't actually intelligent. Intelligence is more than AI.

jmlanzaf

@burfle23 said:
To me, the email now sent noting the decision that was made, incorrectly in the posted examples here, is just bizarre and does not help eBay's reputation nor promote confidence in the process. Enough of those and if I were just reporting through those channels I would probably give up- don't think that is their intent, but who knows.

I don't think anyone "complained about the listing", or even the outcome, just the strange Bay response.

And I don't confuse the fact some listings were removed during this conversation as indicating the bots got wiser from the report later and addressed the listings...

I agree that the email is new and odd. I do not think that email indicates any change in eBay procedures, however. Things appear to be the same as always.

burfle23

@jmlanzaf said:

@burfle23 said:
To me, the email now sent noting the decision that was made, incorrectly in the posted examples here, is just bizarre and does not help eBay's reputation nor promote confidence in the process. Enough of those and if I were just reporting through those channels I would probably give up- don't think that is their intent, but who knows.

I don't think anyone "complained about the listing", or even the outcome, just the strange Bay response.

And I don't confuse the fact some listings were removed during this conversation as indicating the bots got wiser from the report later and addressed the listings...

I agree that the email is new and odd. I do not think that email indicates any change in eBay procedures, however. Things appear to be the same as always.

Just curious how many bad coins/ listings you see daily and how many you report? Just trying to get a reference for your statement "Things appear to be the same as always".

jmlanzaf

@burfle23 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@burfle23 said:
To me, the email now sent noting the decision that was made, incorrectly in the posted examples here, is just bizarre and does not help eBay's reputation nor promote confidence in the process. Enough of those and if I were just reporting through those channels I would probably give up- don't think that is their intent, but who knows.

I don't think anyone "complained about the listing", or even the outcome, just the strange Bay response.

And I don't confuse the fact some listings were removed during this conversation as indicating the bots got wiser from the report later and addressed the listings...

I agree that the email is new and odd. I do not think that email indicates any change in eBay procedures, however. Things appear to be the same as always.

Just curious how many bad coins/ listings you see daily and how many you report? Just trying to get a reference for your statement "Things appear to be the same as always".

I report all the ones I see, but I don't buy a lot of coins on ebay so I don't know how many that is. But I'm not referring to the number of problem listings but to what ebay does about them. I see no change in their behavior, other than their automated email.

IkesT

@jmlanzaf said:
You are ignoring the trees for the forests. They get thousands of reports per day, not all of them accurate. It takes time to sort through them and even then they lack the expertise to make some of the determinations.

I'm doing no such thing. Your arguments might make more sense if you actually fact checked yourself and read what others have already written in the same thread you are posting in.

burfle23

Just for giggles I reported another one for the evening; I received the same initial response...

AUandAG

I messaged the seller instead of reporting and boy did he chew me out for reporting him!

bob
vegas, baby!

IkesT

@AUandAG said:
I messaged the seller instead of reporting and boy did he chew me out for reporting him!

bob
vegas, baby!

He's clearly very keen to sell those counterfeits - changing his listing tactics every time to try to fly under the radar...

AUandAG

@IkesT said:

@AUandAG said:
I messaged the seller instead of reporting and boy did he chew me out for reporting him!

He's clearly very keen to sell those counterfeits - changing his listing tactics every time to try to fly under the radar...

I told him he's got a lot of eyes on his auctions.... coin community is not happy!
bob
vegas, baby!

ifthevamzarockin

@IkesT said:
It's a real concern that they appear to have taken an ineffective reporting system and made it even worse.

It's called ebay improvements none of their improvements ever improve anything they just make it worse.

jmlanzaf

@IkesT said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You are ignoring the trees for the forests. They get thousands of reports per day, not all of them accurate. It takes time to sort through them and even then they lack the expertise to make some of the determinations.

I'm doing no such thing. Your arguments might make more sense if you actually fact checked yourself and read what others have already written in the same thread you are posting in.

I read them all. It's the only reason I bothered to post. For at least the last 5+ years, they take down most listings that they get multiple reports on. They take down very few listings that they get single reports on. I believe that is the "automation". It's been probably 15 years since they had experts in-house to look at these things.

burfle23

Way gone...

messydesk

For all we know, they could be tracking the precision of user-reported counterfeits (true positives / (true positives + false positives)), using it as the probability that a report is correct, and using a random number generator to decide whether or not to believe the report.