Dealers who "DON'T DO THE INTERNET" and "HOW Important are images to buyers before purchase" ?
synchr
Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
IN HIGH DOLLAR DEALS ARE IMAGES IMPORTANT TO YOU?
DOES LACK OF IMAGES INDICATE A SCAM POTENTIAL AND SOMETHING TO AVOID?
A dealer that I have never dealt with before contacted me through the PMG Registry to solicit sales of notes to me from Rock's collection. The dealer did not find it easy to show me photos and told me that they were Rock's and rather than send me images, I should go to the PMG Registry, find Rock's sets and see the note images already there.
I logged in and while the PMG Registry did have each note the photo was blank for each image slot (I believe they charge for that). I emailed back and the dealer claimed I needed to take the Registration number of each note, then go to the certification verification page and submit it so then I could see the notes there.
A couple iterations of this churn and I still have not seen the notes, so am really turned off to the point that I am questioning whether or not this is a mythical deal. I contacted the dealer and really questioned what was going on as I had never done a deal with him before and reminded him that this was almost $30,000.00 in notes.
I got back a very heated response that this dealer "IS OLD SCHOOL AND DOES NOT DO THE INTERNET" claiming that I was making him a victim and that I should not be forcing him into some huge full blown E-Commerce site.
Super emotional response and exaggeration
BUT AM I OUT OF LINE HERE IN REQUESTING PICS IN A HIGH END DEAL?
I pay $65 a year for Domain name registration, full website templates and webspace.
Really cheap, no "Full Blown E-Commerce" website but just a place to host photos and basic text where I can quickly upload a photo then send the link to prospective buyers. Very basic, Very easy to use, Very Simple
http://route66collecting.com/1963-1-frns
In this Graphical and Visual hobby I really find it important to be able to see items before buying
Obviously, the dealer does not get it and does not see any value in his ability to display photos to prospective buyers.
In our VERY aging hobby he is not necessarily a unique occurrence
Is it reasonable in high dollar deals to require photos of the items ?
Are dealers who "DON'T DO THE INTERNET" a red flag to you
**Is it reasonable that there are uninvited dealers approaching you and soliciting you for high dollar sales without the ability to show photos of what is being sold or does this set red flags in any of your deals?
**
All comments appreciated
Comments
I would certainly want quality scans, but playing the devil’s advocate, John DeRocker (Rock) was known for choosing really “nice for the grade” notes. I would sometimes buy notes from John when he was able to upgrade.
I know quite a few old school dealers who are reliable and trustworthy and would have reacted as you have stated.
However, unless i personally knew the person, i would not do a deal with them based on the facts you have presented because it is far more likely its a scam.
+1
I know a few dealers who are old school too. But I feel you are entitled to your scans. If you feel uncomfortable with buying blind, then walk. I know I would (talking those figures).
I have bought/sold notes this way (sight unseen) but its generally low valued notes between collectors I know/trust. It's up to you: but I don't think it calls for heated exchanges. If that were the case, then it would be "all bets off" for me.
**https://sites.google.com/view/notaphilycculture/collecting-banknotes **
I agree with Steve_in_Tampa: Jon is one of the few collectors whose notes can be purchased sight unseen.
I also agree with Synchr: A dealer selling such high-caliber notes should be offering scans without question. It's a disservice to the collector.
"What you see, is what you get" sometimes.
A dealer that "doesn't do the Internet" shouldn't try to sell their notes through the Internet, and shouldn't be surprised or upset about such requests if they choose to attempt it anyway. And they should be unsurprised if they only attain pre-Internet prices.
I've known several "old-school" dealers. None of them ever have anything to do with selling things online. Several only did coin shows; one (until a couple of years ago) still typed out a snail-mail sales catalogue, on an actual mid-20th-century typewriter. Though I think he used a photocopier to duplicate it, rather than a Gestetner, so there was that one concession to post-1980 technology.
I'm old-school enough that I'd be super reluctant to pay over US$500 for something without seeing it in person first. Scans can lie (they can be doctored, or stolen).
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
As picky as I am, there’s no way under any circumstances I would buy for my collection sight unseen.
Flipping possibly, but never for my collection.
My YouTube Channel
My OCD needs very clear images like those over at Heritage but some times some coins I thought were ugly on eBay turned out to be much nicer in hand and that has happened more often than not. I would only buy coins unseen from people I know they are people of their word.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Hey guys, I am just now seeing this thread which I was surprised to find that I am actually the subject of!
This forum is not super active like it was back in the day so I am not here as often as I used to be.
I spent hours scanning all the notes that were of interest in 300dpi and created a shared dropbox folder. There was a strange communication breakdown with our emails back and forth. I have since deleted the dropbox folder after receiving some very unusual email correspondence.
As far as the web hosting subject goes. I set up at 40-50 coin shows per year that are live and in-person. For dealers that do a show nearly every single week the idea of having a website with full up to date inventory would be a total nightmare.
As many of you know email alone is not the best form of communication. If you are ever interested in something a dealer has that fits your collection and you have questions or concerns and you feel you need additional clarification, consider making a phone call, or even scheduling a face-time call or Zoom session. Technology can be our best friend and also our worst enemy, but always more communication is better than having questions go unanswered. Never make assumptions, always ask more questions! 😁
(edited for some typos)
I can certainly vouch for dealer Tookybandit. Have bought many notes from him including a blockbuster just recently at the Vegas show. I had the opportunity to view some of Rock's silver certificate notes too at that show and like others mentioned Rock had a very good eye for quality and didn't buy anything that was subpar for the grade. What I would do if I was trying to work out a mega deal in the caliber of 30k is to try and schedule a meet up in person type of thing to view the notes if possible.
I can also vouch for Robert (Tookybandit).
He’s a knowledgeable and fair paper money dealer and an overall terrific guy. As honest and hard working as the day is long.
Thanks for clarifying, Tooky!
I've had one transaction with Tookybandit so far. No problems. Would do business with him again.
Looks like a communication problem to me. No ill intent nor deception here.
Great conversation and tangential discussion but lets bring this back on topic
"What are reasonable actions in a first ever transaction for 11 notes costing just under $30,000.00?"
Every reader here knows how long it would take them to get images of 11 notes by cell phone or scanner. If a Dealer told you that it would take "hours and hours..." of his time to get images of 11 notes, then every reader here can determine if that coincides with their experience or not.
But let's look at some facts.
1) DEALER COLD CALL - prior, I never reached out to the dealer, I have never asked the dealer to contact me nor have I ever done any deals with this dealer. I have no history with this dealer. The dealer contacted me through the PMG Registry, cold calling me with an offer to sell me Rock's notes.
2) ID, PICS, PRICE? - Since the dealer initiated contact, any reasonable buyer would conclude that it is the dealer's obligation to identify what the dealer has for sale, show photos and set an asking price. The dealer sent me a list of notes, TPG grades and prices but no photos. I selected 11 notes and responded to the dealer about only these notes.
3) BUY THE PEDIGREE - Since the dealer had not offered to show the notes, I politely asked the dealer "had he seen the 11 notes and did the grade match the note?" with a general positive response and the dealer's claim that he did have the notes in hand. I agreed to all dealers requirements, full asking prices, I pay for all wire fees and I accept dealer's choice of shipping by Registered USPS at my expense. No haggling, no negotiation, easy full price deal.
4) GET THE PHOTOS YOUR OWN DANG SELF - Another polite prompt to see the 11 notes and the dealer responded that I should go to the PMG Registry to see them as they are all part of Rock's Registry Set collection. I logged into PMG, went to Rock's Registry Set collection, found each note in his Registry Set and the photos were blank.
5) GET THE PHOTOS YOUR OWN DANG SELF, AGAIN - I relayed the blank images to the dealer and he instructed me to go back to the PMG website, find the RESOURCES tab, drop down to VERIFY PMG CERTIFICATION and submit each PMG certification number to view the 11 notes' images. I did and each had a generic image, but I became concerned at the dealer's lack of disclosure after his claim to possess them.
6) GOT REAL NOTES ? - I asked if he could provide me current images of the 11 notes and the response was resistance which made me suspicious. One reason photos might be difficult is if he didn't actually have the notes despite the claim otherwise. Brokering others' notes that you do not possess is common in this industry. After more resistance the dealer sent a drop box which promptly wanted to install an unwanted application on my machine.
7) ALL NOTES HELD 10 DAYS AFTER WIRE TRANSFER RECEIVED - The dealer stated that even after receiving my full payment of almost $30,000.00 by wire transfer that he will be taking 10 days to ship because he was very busy traveling on the Dealer circuit to shows and just did not have the time. I would not expect to see the notes for 2-3 weeks
8) BAD VIBES, SAFETY FIRST - There were too many Red Flags for my taste but I really needed the notes. I was very concerned about the lack of transparency in our first ever transaction so decided to mitigate risk by asking the Dealer "Can we break this up into 3 transactions?" reminding him that I was paying full asking price for all notes, I was paying for all wire fees and I was paying for all shippings.
9) REJECTED DEAL - Dealer responded that he did "Lay Away" all the time but he really only wanted to only have to go to the Post office once to ship to me. I responded that I had all funds for all deals, but I don't have a history with him and would liek to proceed for safety as well as seeing how he shipped and packed before proceeding on subsequent deals. I received a heated email from the Dealer that made him sound like a victim.
I have been contacted 3 times through the "PMG website contact" and have complained to PMG as each time
as it is a seller stating "I saw your Registry Set, you need my note, now you must compromise on service or price"
Never again
Many of your “Facts” are incorrect… they are conjecture based on your interpretation of my thought process and assumptions you made when you read emails I sent you.
All of your issues could have been solved with a simple phone call. Misunderstandings can be rectified when communication takes place. Asking for clarification instead of instantly assuming the worst at every turn would have been very productive in this situation.
Yes I mentioned I could not ship orders while I was at the upcoming Vegas show. This was only a four day window of time.
It is okay, sometimes things are just not meant to be.
There’s always two sides to every story.
It’s unfortunate that a deal was unable to come to fruition, and I remain steadfast in my support for Robert (Tookybandit) . I’ve personally dealt with Robert in a deal valued at $50K and even hosted him at my home. He’s shown me his integrity time after time.
Much appreciated Steve! 💕
This is my very first upset/disgruntled customer situation… and an actual transaction never even took place.
I'm sorry to hear that two experienced collectors/dealers would let issues of proper conduct sour their deal. Try harder to be more understanding and you will do more business.
It is a shame that dealers in this industry do not enjoy the artwork or the visual aspect of the notes they are selling, posing solely as profiteers.
I don’t agree with this generalization of paper money dealers.
Like anything else, you have good dealers and the not so good dealers . Personally and respectfully, I would put Robert in the good dealers category regardless of your experience.
I read your post about your experience and I see nothing at all in what transpired to support this rather incendiary claim.
Quite honestly, it tells me more about you than it does about the dealer.
I want to thank the people that reached out to me, suggesting contacting the family on how the notes are being disbursed and submitting dealer complaints. All communication was in writing and preserved
Doing online has its advantages and disadvantages. Shows same thing. It’s all how your working your angle / what FOH budget will support. My buying about 50/50 shows / online. If item fairly big ticket prefer buying sight seen - show.
I don’t believe in making generalizations about dealers. The real world - YMMV.
Far be it for me to tell a dealer how to do business....but if we learned anything from the pandemic it's that people are more comfortable buying online from pics.
Travelling to shows, even regional ones, costs big $$$. Add in national shows, and that's EASILY 5-figures. I'll bet some of you spend $20,000 or more on travel, hotels, meals, security, etc. going to shows even just monthly, let alone more frequently.
Cut that expense out or cut it down 75-90% like many did during Covid....rising sales....less expenses...profit margins skyrocket.