CACG Grading

124Spider

Hi,

Now that CACG slabs are hitting the market, I am looking for some clarification about the grading scale they use.

Obviously, it's nominally the same 70-point system that's been in use for decades.

But some vendors add the "CAC" green sticker to the listing for all CACG coins, giving the impression that CACG's scale only includes coins that would get a green sticker were they graded by someone else.

I don't believe that this is the case, since it would make no sense. I can believe that CACG is attempting to reverse grade inflation.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Mark

may

Misunderstood the question.

robec

Stickers are only put on NGC or PCGS slabs. The CACG slab has their green icon as part of their cert label. It isn’t a sticker it is part of the label like the Gold Shield is a part of the PCGS label.

coinbuf

@robec said:
Stickers are only put on NGC or PCGS slabs. The CACG slab has their green icon as part of their cert label. It isn’t a sticker it is part of the label like the Gold Shield is a part of the PCGS label.

100% agree, however, just to add to this. A CACG graded coin is supposed to be the same quality as an equal grade P or N coin with the green bean. So, a CACG MS64 is equivalent to a P/N MS64 with a green bean sticker. That is the theory, no doubt there will be some variance as it is two different teams in two different locations, CAC in NJ and CACG in VA.

It's the plus grades that are harder to understand or equate, remember that the green bean only says that a P/N graded + coin is an A or B coin for the whole grade not for the plus. So, a P/N MS64+ may (or may not) be equal to a CACG MS64+ graded coin, in the eyes of CACG.

messydesk

@124Spider said:
...

But some vendors add the "CAC" green sticker to the listing for all CACG coins, giving the impression that CACG's scale only includes coins that would get a green sticker were they graded by someone else.

I don't believe that this is the case, since it would make no sense. I can believe that CACG is attempting to reverse grade inflation.

Any help would be appreciated.

A lot of dust has yet to settle on how The Market™ deals with CACG's grading. Vendors are always looking for a chance to hype something up, and if using the green sticker icon for CACG coins helps, they'll do it. Once everyone figures out it's just a logo, like the PCGS Gold Shield, it'll stop becoming a point for promotion.

The impression given that their scale is only for coins they'd sticker is partially true. Inexactitude of grading notwithstanding, one could assume that CACG's scale includes only coins that would get a green sticker were they graded by someone else at that grade. Coins they wouldn't sticker might grade lower or they might get details grades. They might grade the same or higher, but that would seem unlikely. Of course, the only way to test this is by sampling enough coins to make a test non-anecdotal, crossing them to PCGS or NGC at CACG grade, then getting them stickered and seeing what the success rate is.

124Spider

@coinbuf said:

@robec said:
Stickers are only put on NGC or PCGS slabs. The CACG slab has their green icon as part of their cert label. It isn’t a sticker it is part of the label like the Gold Shield is a part of the PCGS label.

100% agree, however, just to add to this. A CACG graded coin is supposed to be the same quality as an equal grade P or N coin with the green bean. So, a CACG MS64 is equivalent to a P/N MS64 with a green bean sticker. That is the theory, no doubt there will be some variance as it is two different teams in two different locations, CAC in NJ and CACG in VA.

It's the plus grades that are harder to understand or equate, remember that the green bean only says that a P/N graded + coin is an A or B coin for the whole grade not for the plus. So, a P/N MS64+ may (or may not) be equal to a CACG MS64+ graded coin, in the eyes of CACG.

Thanks; this is the answer to my question.

It'll be interesting to see how collectors use this new service. Personally, were I sending in a coin for grading, I would rather it be P/N X than CACG X-1. So I would send it in to CACG only if I were highly confident that it was "strong for the grade." But this will skew things over time, won't it?

PeakRarities

@coinbuf said:

@robec said:
Stickers are only put on NGC or PCGS slabs. The CACG slab has their green icon as part of their cert label. It isn’t a sticker it is part of the label like the Gold Shield is a part of the PCGS label.

100% agree, however, just to add to this. A CACG graded coin is supposed to be the same quality as an equal grade P or N coin with the green bean. So, a CACG MS64 is equivalent to a P/N MS64 with a green bean sticker. That is the theory, no doubt there will be some variance as it is two different teams in two different locations, CAC in NJ and CACG in VA.

It's the plus grades that are harder to understand or equate, remember that the green bean only says that a P/N graded + coin is an A or B coin for the whole grade not for the plus. So, a P/N MS64+ may (or may not) be equal to a CACG MS64+ graded coin, in the eyes of CACG.

Perfect answer. Nailed it.

291fifth

You are dealing in the world of "opinions". Learn how to grade conservatively and set your own standards.

124Spider

@291fifth said:
You are dealing in the world of "opinions". Learn how to grade conservatively and set your own standards.

I never understand why "advice" such as this, especially in response to my direct question for which this is not an answer, is deemed by anyone to be "helpful." It's not, obviously.

I never, ever see the coin before I buy it. Every single certified coin I have ever bought was over the internet, relying on (i) return privilege, (ii) photographs, (iii) reputation of the seller, and (iv) the certification.

Maybe you're such an expert that you are happy to spend big bucks based on photographs; I am not, and never will be. The certification is very important to me, and I want to be sure that I understand the intent of each of the reputable certification companies. Certainly, I do my best to learn the grading standards, but (as every single GTG thread here shows, grading coins from photographs, no matter how good, is an exercise in guessing, not precision.

Kove

It's only a matter of time before someone takes an NGC 65 that CAC wouldn't sticker, cracks it out and gets it into a CACG 65 holder.

Then highlights it here as an example of how bad CAC/CACG are.

robec

@Kove said:
It's only a matter of time before someone takes an NGC 65 that CAC wouldn't sticker, cracks it out and gets it into a CACG 65 holder.

Then highlights it here as an example of how bad CAC/CACG are.

Getting a 65 that won’t sticker into a CACG holder is bound to happen. I don’t think it will be all that common.

RLSnapper

Ben the Coin Geek did a video experimenting with CACG economy grading. The results were very interesting. The best was a Washington quarter that started life as NGC 66...cracked out to a PCGS 64...then cracked out to a CACG 66PL. The only PL Washington Quarter CACG so far. TPG is always a crapshoot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSbGMngzW34

pcgscacgold

It is interesting that some collectors avoid NGC stickered coins for one reason or another. Some of those same people are buying up CACG Legacy coins, which in many cases are NGC coins that were crossed. Many dealers I spoke with are not sending in PCGS stickered coins.

I also wondered about coins that fail to sticker yet cross at grade to CACG. Some say it will not happen. I bet it will. Also, if there is no chance that it will then almost every non-stickered coin in the big auctions is either over graded or doctored by CACG standards and will not grade as sold. In most cases the auction houses send the big ticket items to JA for consideration. Interesting things to consider.

PeakRarities

John will admit that he is not infallible. While they are trying to maintain consistent standards between both CAC and CACG, if the grading team is in unanimous agreement that John was too tight they’ll just call him and the coin will cross at grade.

I agree with others that It probably won’t happen much but it can and will happen.

Sanddollar

When the clad quarter was introduced in 1965 collectors clamered to collect them. They were different. They were a novelty.
A full roll of quarters might offer only a single clad quarter and the rest were all silver.
Clad quarters were "rare" and thus desirable.

CACG is the clad quarter of 1965. A novelty now and expensive because of it. When all settles down
pcgs (the silver quarters available in 1965) will retain value and we will see a shift in what is important vs that which is not.

jmlanzaf

@Sanddollar said:
When the clad quarter was introduced in 1965 collectors clamered to collect them. They were different. They were a novelty.
A full roll of quarters might offer only a single clad quarter and the rest were all silver.
Clad quarters were "rare" and thus desirable.

CACG is the clad quarter of 1965. A novelty now and expensive because of it. When all settles down
pcgs (the silver quarters available in 1965) will retain value and we will see a shift in what is important vs that which is not.

That ignores the fact that CAC isn't new and has respect in the marketplace. A CAC stickered coin has, for the last decade, sold for more than a PCGS coin without a sticker.

I'm also not sure why people feel they need to reject one to show their fan boy status for another. In the end, it's still about the coin.

NGC is bigger than PCGS. PCGS is, in some segments, more respected than NGC. CAC is a respected company that has existed for 15+ years. I see no reason why the 3 can't continue to coexist.

DisneyFan

@124Spider said:

But some vendors add the "CAC" green sticker to the listing for all CACG coins,

As others have said, the CAC logo on CACG coins is just a logo, like the PCGS Gold Shield.

Possibly the reason for dealers to highlight the CAC on, for example CACG DETAILS coins, is their computer software is not yet setup to segregate CACG coins the way they segregate CAC coins.

Sanddollar

jmlanzaf stated:
"That ignores the fact that CAC isn't new and has respect in the marketplace."

My response:
The Washington quarter isn't new.
The CACG slab version (of CAC) is new in 2023, just as the clad version of the quarter was new back in 1965.
As the clad version filled up cash register tills in 1965 and as the CACG slabs fills up dealer showcases in 2023 the
novelty will wear off and the prices stabilize.

Here is an example:
Asking price: $374.00 on eBay:

Asking price $40.00 on eBay:

DisneyFan

@pcgscacgold said:
I also wondered about coins that fail to sticker yet cross at grade to CACG. Some say it will not happen. I bet it will.

Here is mine

66 (DID NOT STICKER) to 65+

CAC PRICE GUIDE $$960 FOR MS66 DOWN TO $910 FOR MS65

CAC PRICE GUIDE MS65+ ???

I'M HAPPY!

Project Numismatics

@Sanddollar said:
jmlanzaf stated:
"That ignores the fact that CAC isn't new and has respect in the marketplace."

My response:
The Washington quarter isn't new.
The CACG slab version (of CAC) is new in 2023, just as the clad version of the quarter was new back in 1965.
As the clad version filled up cash register tills in 1965 and as the CACG slabs fills up dealer showcases in 2023 the
novelty will wear off and the prices stabilize.

Here is an example:
Asking price: $374.00 on eBay:

Asking price $40.00 on eBay:

One example of asking price on eBay is statistically useless. There are many unrealistic asking prices on eBay for all kinds of coins and slabs.

jmlanzaf

@Sanddollar said:
jmlanzaf stated:
"That ignores the fact that CAC isn't new and has respect in the marketplace."

My response:
The Washington quarter isn't new.
The CACG slab version (of CAC) is new in 2023, just as the clad version of the quarter was new back in 1965.
As the clad version filled up cash register tills in 1965 and as the CACG slabs fills up dealer showcases in 2023 the
novelty will wear off and the prices stabilize.

Here is an example:
Asking price: $374.00 on eBay:

Asking price $40.00 on eBay:

I can list a PCGS IKE for $600 if it helps prove my point. Find a SALE price

So someone is trying to take advantage of temporarily being the top pop. Big deal.

Sanddollar

@Project Numismatics said:

One example of asking price on eBay is statistically useless. There are many unrealistic asking prices on eBay for all kinds of coins and slabs.

Closing price within the last few days:

$3,700:

$5,300:

To make it fair I found a PCGS example that also displays the CAC sticker.

P0CKETCHANGE

The CACG ‘55 DDO has MUCH better eye appeal, IMO. I’m not at all surprised it sold for more than the PCGS coin.

124Spider

I think there's no question that there is a bit of hype around CACG slabs, which defies understanding. I've seen CACG 58 coins that I'm looking for, advertised on reputable vendors' sites for the same price as I see PCGS 63 of the same coin advertised. Good luck with that, but you'd have to be crazy to participate in that kind of bubble, IMO.

jmlanzaf

@Sanddollar said:

@Project Numismatics said:

One example of asking price on eBay is statistically useless. There are many unrealistic asking prices on eBay for all kinds of coins and slabs.

Closing price within the last few days:

$3

To make it fair I found a PCGS example that also displays the CAC sticker.

These are called anecdotes. Here's a pair of coins that (doesn't) prove the exact opposite.

To make it fair, I picked a PCGS coin that didn't have a CAC sticker and still sold for more.

messydesk

@124Spider said:
I think there's no question that there is a bit of hype around CACG slabs, which defies understanding. I've seen CACG 58 coins that I'm looking for, advertised on reputable vendors' sites for the same price as I see PCGS 63 of the same coin advertised. Good luck with that, but you'd have to be crazy to participate in that kind of bubble, IMO.

There's been a lot of hype around slabs in general over the past year or so. The coin doesn't matter, just the age of the slab and the color of the sticker. Some of that's probably bleeding into the CACG slab hype, but they do have hype of their own at the moment to. As I said before, there's a lot of dust that needs to settle regarding their standing in the marketplace, and that's going to take a while.

Barberian

@124Spider said:

@coinbuf said:

@robec said:
Stickers are only put on NGC or PCGS slabs. The CACG slab has their green icon as part of their cert label. It isn’t a sticker it is part of the label like the Gold Shield is a part of the PCGS label.

100% agree, however, just to add to this. A CACG graded coin is supposed to be the same quality as an equal grade P or N coin with the green bean. So, a CACG MS64 is equivalent to a P/N MS64 with a green bean sticker. That is the theory, no doubt there will be some variance as it is two different teams in two different locations, CAC in NJ and CACG in VA.

It's the plus grades that are harder to understand or equate, remember that the green bean only says that a P/N graded + coin is an A or B coin for the whole grade not for the plus. So, a P/N MS64+ may (or may not) be equal to a CACG MS64+ graded coin, in the eyes of CACG.

Thanks; this is the answer to my question.

It'll be interesting to see how collectors use this new service. Personally, were I sending in a coin for grading, I would rather it be P/N X than CACG X-1. So I would send it in to CACG only if I were highly confident that it was "strong for the grade." But this will skew things over time, won't it?

I plan on sending a few coins that I feel are overgraded for crossover at CACG. These are some of my choicest coins for the grade that were graded a tad generously by TPGs for their appearance.

Overgraded at VF30. "No 'E'" - JA. He's right. The reverse is, at best, VF25 as well.

Cougar1978

I am putting together a CACG grading set of Morgan Dollars MS62-65. Have already procured 1 piece. Will use them as display in one of my cases at shows (advertising) draw traffic. Would simply sell pieces cost plus if buyer. Rinse & Repeat. With that project completed - expand to Peace $ grading set.