With a lack of trust in PCGS, who has emailed them, called them, or requested refunds?
keyman64
Posts: 15,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
With reference to this thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1096238/attention-variety-owners-collectors-trust-value-destroyed/p1
People paid a lot of money to PCGS for variety attributions and now the cert numbers reflect only the base coin, no variety! People have lost thousands of dollars in value, not to mention the variety attribution fees and other fees. Many of these coins would not have been sent in for grading, gold shield, True Views, reholders, variety attribution, shipping charges both ways, insurance both ways, etc etc etc...had they known PCGS was just going to pull the rug out from under the collectors.
Trust in the PCGS brand is just not there. PCGS has broken this.
Value has been destroyed after they helped create a market for these coins.
Value of varieties just isn't safe in a PCGS holder when they help create the market in conjunction with the CPG.
I am not sure why PCGS thinks any of this is a good business decision. I do not understand why they want to alienate collectors when they are facing greater competition. Is anyone able to explain why this makes business sense?
Who has called PCGS to complain? Who has emailed PCGS? Who has requested refunds? I think refunds are absolutely in order. If you pull up the cert numbers, they no longer indicate they are the variety. People paid for this service and now PCGS is not holding up their end.
Or...maybe you have just written PCGS off completely and are just not submitting to them any longer? Is this the case for anyone but you just hang out on the forums because of the relationships that have been built with other collectors?
If collectors sound off on these decisions then there's the possibility that PCGS will respond appropriately. If no one says anything then they just get away with it...or they might just think they got away with it when everyone just silently takes their business elsewhere? Not just the variety business but all of their other business as well.
If you do not want to call PCGS at 800-447-8848, you can email them. There are a lot of different email addresses to try:
Set Registry email on their website: SetRegistry@Collectors.com
The President is here: stephanie@collectors.com <--- I am not sure if she knows what is happening and what the real impact on collectors is. Does she know that PCGS has financially hurt a lot of collectors with this action? Does she know trust in the PCGS brand has been destroyed for many? What is the benefit to hurting their collectors, removing a small revenue stream to PCGS and losing some collectors completely? How much time has PCGS spent in meetings over this? Maybe none? Fielding phone calls and emails on this subject? Who was involved in making the decisions that hurt so many collectors? Are they still employed with PCGS? Was Stephanie the one leading the charge to hurt so many collectors, costing them thousands of dollars, even 5-figures? Collectors deserve answers.
I have sold a lot of these varieties at auction for very significant premiums, most of them starting at $1. I feel bad for the people that have purchased these coins, trusting that PCGS would stand behind their work and the market they helped create.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
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Not having submitted to them before, it gives me pause, as I was just about to pay membership to submit here, after letting my NGC membership expire last month. One of the reasons I was planning to switch is more recognized varieties in British pennies. Granted, these aren't on chopping block in relation to CPG, but it sure made me wince, and it feels not much of a stretch to think a similar practice could spread to an unrelated series, such as that. Add to that some complaints of numerous TVs not appearing in albums suddenly, I'm a lot less encouraged to consider this switch.
I Understand what you said
But I hope you will still be around after it?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I couldn't pay attention after the third sentence, is there a TLDR?
PCGS de-listed some varieties they had previously required in variety registry sets and now those coins show up as generic coins and are valued on PCGS CoinFacts as the generic version. The OP lists reasons why this is wrong and urges others to contact PCGS to protest.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
A collector actually sought out such variety, paid for the attribution they already made, just to play the registry game...
Come on PCGS!
Didn't they ping pong their opinion on the Buff 1914/13 many years ago?
So maybe they reverse their mistake.
That said, it plays no part in my decisions whether to submit coins in the future.
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It seems that a number of companies, especially after being bought out by hedge funds, have lost personnel they used to have to properly service customers. I applied for a job at UPS this week and was told they'd downsized many functions such as the HR department typical of Wall Street's demands. NGC also was bought out by a hedge fund. I filed a complaint with the state of Florida consumer affairs, you could do the same in CA for this company, at least it gets your concerns on record, there may be no actions taken however. I've used my state of CT's consumer affairs complaint process to hold large companies accountable and have almost always gotten a good resolution.
Bud Light tried to change their image...didn't turn out too good for them.
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
Not so much change but expand their image, but the end result was the same.
peacockcoins
I completely understand your frustration, and I would be as upset as you if it directly affected me. However, I don't routinely collect varieties (although I do own several), and I don't participate in the registry so I don't really think I have grounds to lodge a complaint. With that said, I hope you are successful in getting, PCGS to reverse their decision.
Philippians 4:4-7
Wow, unbelievable!!!
Reminds me of the money lost when the Plus (+) Grade was Introduced. All the coins in the then pricey MS67FB Roosies that didn't upgrade to the Plus, lost a load money. I didn't enjoy that either.
Indeed! It is the nature of "improvement" and "progress" to simplify things at the expense of precision, accuracy, and quality.
It has always been thus and probably always will.
There was a time I had some of the best roosevelt dimes anywhere. They were very well struck Gems. But then FB/ FT was invented and every single one without the designation became a second class citizen.
Perhaps popular demand can restore varieties to the set but it might need more grass roots support. Maybe a list of the specific varieties removed could get some support for them. I did see a couple of mercs that seemed to be significant and were removed.
Interesting, this is the first I’ve heard of any of this…
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First, any internal downsizing of something like the HR Dept. has nothing to do with "Wall Street demands" as there isn't much cost-savings to be delivered from there. It's more likely a function of cutting white-collar jobs that are superfluous given the rather exorbitant contract they gave to the Teamsters union.
This has nothing to do as far as I can tell with hedge fund demands, either. I also don't think this is a consumer affairs issue. It's internal to PCGS and/or NGC. Let them know your concerns....state them without emotion, and why it's bad for you, the coin hobby, and the TPGs.....and there's a good chance (hopefully) they will reconsider.
Good Luck !!
They went DOWN in price -- or they just didn't increase in value ?
I understand this point, but it’s nothing like the point made by the OP. With his point, PCGS agreed to recognize a variety AND INCLUDED IT AS A REQUIRED COIN IN PCGS’s Variety REGISTRY SETS. That created demand, and since the supply was not tremendous, prices for that variety increased. Now all of a sudden, not only will PCGS not slab any new submissions with that variety, they REMOVED that variety from the Variety Registry sets that had it as a required coin! THAT action by PCGS of taking something away caused significant money loss!
Full disclosure, I have never collected varieties, but I’m sympathetic to the point made by the OP.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
“Wow, unbelievable!!!
Reminds me of the money lost when the Plus (+) Grade was Introduced. All the coins in the then pricey MS67FB Roosies that didn't upgrade to the Plus, lost a load money. I didn't enjoy that either.”
Lablover. Why did you jump ahead so many years? Let’s remember when we all begged PCGS to adopt the “FB” designation for Roosies. My “team” had the most MS68’s ever graded by PCGS. IF I remember that wrong, then it was Nick’s “team”, but I think at that time I was ahead on count. PCGS finally agreed to treat the Roosies like the Mercury Dime counterparts! At first, the Champagne flowed. Then, we all submitted all of our MS68’s (and the very scarce date MS67’s) and the majority of coins failed to get the FB designation!! CRASH went the value of many of our sets!! My team’s set to be sure! Lesson learned to this day -be careful what you wish for!
Wondercoin.
Edited to add - I see CladKing also touched on this, but of course his coins were not PCGS graded as PCGS needed 20 more years to even be “invented” at the time CK was burning off the soles of his shoes hunting down high grade clad dimes! 😂
...
‘‘I understand this point, but it’s nothing like the point made by the OP.’’
Winesteven - to the collectors that never wanted a “‘designation” added to their coins, and then lost up to 90% of their value after it happened, it probably feels about the same - yes?
To stay on the point of this thread - I am also very sympathetic to the plight of these collectors (I’ll likely be in the same boat right after the CPG says goodbye to modern quarters, 50C and dollars in its next update) and this has been discussed over at “MyCollect” in detail. I even commented over there that it was a project for me in November to assist with this situation as THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE in PCGS’ near 40 year existence! And, it was ‘sorted out”. This isn’t the first time the CPG decided to get rid of varieties they previously “showcased”.
I suggest the OP (with, no doubt, the best of intentions here) edit the title of this thread, perhaps make a few adjustments to some of the wording of his posts and bring the temperature in the room down a little bit so real progress can likely be made to address the important issues here.
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin.
Sad that someone pays to play the game PCGS started and they are impacted $$$.
It is a few keystrokes and apparently few attributions needed due to scarcity or lack of interest.
They are likely just verifying what a specialist has submitted.
Yet 90% of VAM's hold no premium.
If they are going to clean up the process, start with VAM's.
I just don't see the PCGS logic.
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I've seen it again and again with the corporate buyouts; a decline in quality of service and we are certainly seeing it at NGC as well in spades, just terrible waits to even do order entry and yo-yo like turn-around times once they do log-in the submission. It was never like this before. The Wall Street apologists will always lather praise on the likes of Larry Fink and Blackrock, Vanguard and the other "private equity funds" because they benefit by doing so. Take away that bias and you might have clear analysis.
We need to find the PCGS number when submitting to ensure they still recognize the variety? Their exclusion list has not been updated to include the new Cherrypicker's
https://pcgs.com/cherrypickerexclusions
I don't disagree with your thesis...but you picked the two most incorrect examples.
Blackrock is predominantly known for iShares, its ultra low cost ETF business. Vanguard is known as a shareholder owned, little guy friendly, mutual fund/ETF family. One of the first and certainly most successful companies that brought about ultra-low cost investments for every day investors. They are NOT private equity funds (although Blackrock does offer a few of them but they are a little fish in that business).
"... and urges others to contact PCGS to protest."
And that would be the OP's mistake. This is a PCGS website. It must not be used as a platform to organize protest against PCGS.
I don't think he's too concerned about that at the moment.
While I agree with most of what you are saying, you should probably focus on getting PCGS to reverse course on the cert numbers bringing up the variety and not have it defer to the normal coin. Afterall, these varieties were not debunked.
They still exist outside the registries. Theyre not going to refund anybody for any losses, and I think you know this.
Would you, yourself, consider issuing refunds to your clients that purchased these varieties from you? Of course not! they could protest in the same way, stating you sold them coins based on a perceived value, but people buy at their own risk.
This whole thing can probably be resolved through diplomacy with members not being nuked for insubordination. I hope so. It seems like a poor decision that could be reversed with a ten minute Teams meeting.
Good luck, keyman
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I can understand removing an obscure variety from a registry set if it is determined to be less desirable than originally thought. I don’t understand removing such varieties from the numbering system, if that’s what’s actually happening.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Example of an 'old/variety' coin number, and the associated variety attribution, being removed from the cert verification.
Also note that the "PCGS Price Guide Value" presented on the cert verification is for the 'base/non-variety' coin (due to the coin number switch).
Here is how the example fares elsewhere on the PCGS site:
1) "Price Guide" - currently displays the 'old/variety' coin number, with values. No idea if this will be maintained going forward.
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/mercury-dime-1916-1945/703/most-active/ms?specNo=510032&pn=2
2) "Pop Report" - the 'old/variety' coin number cannot be "found".
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/pop
3) Coinfacts - the 'old/variety' coin number is still active, but some info appears to be missing (e.g., images, "PCGS Population", and auction results).
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1945-10c-fs-101-ddo/510032
So if I understand this correctly, the coin ID number still exists, but some data isn't loading on CoinFacts. And you think the problem has to do with a policy decision, not a compter glitch?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I would suggest advocating for something more useful like a volunteer collectors/customer council that maybe meets with PCGS execs once a quarter and relays our concerns and experiences and vice versa.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Hi respect for all expert here . Ihave this can I get answers pla
When they did the varieties they initially would not get counted in the registry. I hated that. I guess you can't please everyone. BTW you could get banned for this post. I would reconsider your tough stance. There was a guy just after HRH that would ban complaining about shipping..
Hello, you should start your own thread, not drop an unrelated question into this one.