Second Rarest 25C Carson City Issue: 1870-CC 25C. Survival Estimates?

ParadimeCoins

We recently posted a PCGS VF25 example and found some interesting discrepancies in the number of survival estimates and on whether it is the Second or Third Rarest Carson City Seated Quarter.

We believe it is second but some descriptions have shown it is even perhaps Third. Has a consensus been reached?

1870-CC 25C is difficult to find in any grade. Only one Mint State example the NGC MS64 Eliasberg coin exists and is a ++million dollar coin. Whilst tied at second finest, likely 2 PCGS AU55. Even in some of the lowest of grades at VG10 today a non-cac PCGS most recently sold for $20,400 08/22 HA. We see a few on the market as well including Norther Nevada's NGC40, all very rare. Just 8,340 of these quarters were minted. Q. David Bowers initially suggested 45-65 survival estimates in 2012. Since then new research through Rusty Goe in his latest book (2020) has updated this to possibly 70-85 respectfully - fairly close. However, Coinfacts cites 300 estimated examples in total now, more than the number of estimates of 1871-CC 25C at 80, which perhaps might be a reason to the debate or whether it is Second or Third finest.

-- Is the number of Survival Estimates for 1870-CC 25C indeed 70-85, less than 1871-CC 25C and not 300? Is the 1870-CC 25C a victim of high resubmissions, simple error or perhaps is there another explanation to this discrepancy.

-- And is it unanimously qualified as the Second Rarest Carson City 25c after the ultra rare 1873-CC 25C No Arrows

AU55 PCGS CAC ex Battle Born - Beautiful example that Stack's sold in 2012 - Image via Coinfacts

AU55 PCGS non-CAC - $188,000 08/21 HA - Image via Coinfacts

If anyone has pics of the Eliasberg example please post.

Crepidodera

Among aficionados of the liberty seated quarter series, the 1870-CC is considered the third rarest CC quarter after the
1873-CC NA and 1871-CC. Rusty Goe's estimates are probably close for the 70-CC and 71-CC. With all due respect to PCGS, the Coinfacts survival estimates for liberty seated quarters are way off. I have no idea where they came up with the 300 estimated survivors for the 1870-CC quarter. Coinfacts also states for the 1872-S quarter: "The 1872-S quarter dollar is a relatively common coin."

My example of the 1870-CC

Doug

Manifest_Destiny

I agree with Doug, the 70-cc is 3rd. I've been looking at your VF25 and it's definitely one of the better mid grade coins out there but it's obviously been cleaned at one point, probably to remove PVC from the high points. It doesn't look like it has environmental damage though, which is a big plus for these early CC quarters.

Doug's 70-cc is probably the best VF that exists.

Manifest_Destiny

My 70-cc. G6 but completely original. It's one of the best low grade ones out there.

ParadimeCoins

Great points @Crepidodera there should be some reasons but why is considered third when 1870-cc:

1) has a lower number of survivors than 1871-cc

2) has a smaller mintage than 1871-cc

3) sells for much more than 1871-cc in xf and higher grades. And in lower grades more or less similar depending on quality

@Manifest_Destiny We like ours original, crusty and cac, but its nearly impossible to find one for a 1870-cc We’re also about to acquire a low grade 1871-cc 25c. Fingers crossed.

Manifest_Destiny

@ParadimeCoins said:
Great points @Crepidodera there should be some reasons but why is considered third when 1870-cc:

1) has a lower number of survivors than 1871-cc

2) has a smaller mintage than 1871-cc

3) sells for much more than 1871-cc in xf and higher grades. And in lower grades more or less similar depending on quality

@Manifest_Destiny We like ours original, crusty and cac, but its nearly impossible to find one for a 1870-cc We’re also about to acquire a low grade 1871-cc 25c. Fingers crossed.

I know you weren't addressing the questions to me, but I'll try and answer.

1. I don't believe the 70-cc has a lower number of survivors. I think the best estimates are around 100 70-cc's and 80 71-cc's.

2. It has a smaller mintage but that really doesn't matter since it's really about how many still exist. Maybe a few more were saved as first year of issue. We'll never know.

3. I think that's a function of the first year of issue. Given the choice, some people may prefer a 70-cc for a type set etc.

Looking forward to seeing your 71-cc. Mine is a VF details, one of three details graded coins in my complete seated quarter set. And thanks for the post. It's always fun to discuss seated quarters, especially Carson City issues.

Crepidodera

Here's my 1871-CC. Not CAC approved like my 70-CC, maybe slightly over graded as NGC F15.

yosclimber

See this recent thread on ranking the rarest seated quarters:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1096251/50-years-ago-a-seated-quarter-analysis

RichieURich

I agree with the consensus: 1873-CC NA is rarest, 1871-CC is second, and 1870-CC is third. PCGS Pops are 61 for the 1871-CC and 81 for the 1870-CC. The 1872-S also has a PCGS Pop of 61.

yosclimber

Here are the Eliasberg 1870-CC and 1871-CC quarters,
from the Bowers and Merena 1997-4 color plates
scanned at the Newman Numismatic Portal.
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=4&AuctionId=525069

Eddi

I know the 1872-CC is considered to be the least scarce among the rare CC quarters. But, does it make it to the top 10, (or 15 or 20) among ALL seated quarters? I only have a '72-CC.

yosclimber

@Eddi said:
I know the 1872-CC is considered to be the least scarce among the rare CC quarters. But, does the it make it to the top 10, (or 15 or 20) among ALL seated quarters? I only have a '72-CC.

5th among all seated quarters in most lists (but considered less rare in one of the lists).
Try clicking on the thread I linked.

Eddi

Thank you very much for posting that link yosclimber !

semikeycollector

@Manifest_Destiny said:
My 70-cc. G6 but completely original. It's one of the best low grade ones out there.

No one says if better than Julie:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=julie+newmar+purfect#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:09840cc6,vid:LeR8xVodads,st:0

rhedden

I've been saving auction photos, dealer photos, collector photos, and even metal detector find photos of 1870-CC and 1871-CC quarters since approximately 2014 or 2015. I dug every photo out of auction archives that I could find and dropped them into a PowerPoint file.

I presently have photos of 93 1870-cc quarters that I believe are different pieces (and not counterfeits). What's remarkable is that new ones keep turning up every few months.

I also kept track of 1871-CC quarters over the same time period, and that archive stands at 68 photos of what I believe are different (and authentic) coins.

I probably need to re-visit auction archives and re-check the PPT file for duplicate coins that got a "face lift" in between grading submissions, because I have been too busy at work lately to really do a rigorous job on this project. However, you can clearly see that the 1870-cc is pulling away as the more common coin.

HoledandCreative

Any holed or plugged ones out there? A Seated Quarters set is by far the most difficult set to complete. I am still looking for over 40 of them.

rhedden

I am aware of at least two holed '70-cc quarters and one holed '71-cc. One of the 70-cc quarters belonged to a forum member at some point, though I don't know who posted it offhand. There are other damaged examples available for both dates if it doesn't have to be holed.

HoledandCreative

Thank you for the info and the pics. I prefer holed, but sometimes settle for plugged if I can't find one. It is not a set that will be completed by me, so I am more picky.

ParadimeCoins

@Manifest_Destiny here it is. Was just posted.

1871-CC 25C VG10 NGC @Crepidodera @rhedden

WCC

@ParadimeCoins said:

However, Coinfacts cites 300 estimated examples in total now, more than the number of estimates of 1871-CC 25C at 80, which perhaps might be a reason to the debate or whether it is Second or Third finest.

-- Is the number of Survival Estimates for 1870-CC 25C indeed 70-85, less than 1871-CC 25C and not 300? Is the 1870-CC 25C a victim of high resubmissions, simple error or perhaps is there another explanation to this discrepancy.

It's my inference that most estimates are just "made up". That's my explanation for the inconsistency in PCGS Coin Facts too, where some estimates across series don't make any sense either.

I don't collect Liberty Seated coinage, but I have looked at the Coin Facts estimates for all of the scarcer dates (by denomination) and some of the others. The least accurate to me are the common Philadelphia dates where my recollection is as few as 500 supposedly exist. Not only is the survival rate unrealistic, but it also seems inconsistent vs. dates with much lower mintages from other mints with presumably far fewer collectors around to save it.

I collect Bolivia and Peru 1/2R, 1R, 2R, and 4R dated 1767-1770 and 1752-1772. As my baseline for the 2R (roughly same size and FV), I use the Liberty Seated quarter, as I view it as the closest comparable where survival is better known. The mintages are noticeably higher than the lowest mintage Liberty Seated quarters, so most are probably absolutely more common (but not necessarily in grade). For a coin like the 1870-CC, a survival rate in the vicinity of 4% doesn't seem unrealistic.

Crepidodera

ParadimeCoins,

That's a nice example of the 1871-CC quarter at a very fair price.

Doug

Manifest_Destiny

@ParadimeCoins Nice coin! Thanks for posting. I wish it was PCGS though, it would be better than my VF details in the registry.

rhedden

Here's my PCGS F15 example of 1871-cc, which is only slightly better than the VG10 shown, if at all. I knew my example was generously graded when I bought it, but the price was fair for the coin, and it now looks rather good at today's levels.

Manifest_Destiny

Here's my VF details coin.

Crypto

Populations are tough. I believe we are at the end of the coin boom generation of the 50s @ 60s that grew up collecting raw and isolated save for sparse local communities. A surprising number of them simply hoarded coins that interested them with little to no records of their holdings. Coins like these especially in the lower or problem levels were just the type to be plucked out of random pages of coin world before prices exploded but interest in CCs (and similar) and the Wild West were prevalent.

This generation is rapidly dwindling and these will pop up where they will most assuredly hit archived, auctions and grading events. In 30 or so years we should have a much more holistic idea of survival rates only confused by submission events.

I personally know of 3 off the grid collectors with thousands of coins of serious collector interest well into 6 figure. Literally talking about has dozens of dups of many different bust, seated, gold, 20cen key dates unknown to the larger community. The overall quality might not be elite but quantity is its own form of quality and there are some jewels in there.

Collecting is closely related to hoarding and until all the previous gen holdings do a transaction cycle in the digital age, we don’t really know.

Manifest_Destiny

"off the grid collectors"

I like the phrase!

Copperindian

Posts like this thread show the value of the message boards. A real learning experience for the uninitiated like me. Thanks to Shannon for kicking this off!
Ken