Questions on the Morgan 1888-O Scarface

RobertScotLover

Is it the boldest error in the Morgan series?
Is it the rarest error?
Is it the most valuable error?
How many are known?
Thank you

PapiNE

It's the 1888-O that has the scarface.
ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/Scarface
Boldness - I would certainly say top 5.
Rarest - No
Most Valuble - No, that would probably go to the King of Vams: 1878 VAM 44
Known - A few hundred

yosclimber

"Error" is the wrong terminology.
It is a die variety, with a series of die states.
Certainly one of the most dramatic for the Morgan series.

"Error" is best used to describe relatively unique things that go wrong while striking, such as off-center, broadstruck, clip, etc.

RobertScotLover

Thank you. A couple of more questions if I may.
PapiNE said there are a few hundred known, is that pertaining to the LDS with the die crack running thru its entirety? I am assuming you just mean the Vam-1B in all its die stages, but I am just looking into the latest die stage.
Yosclimber, yes my bad I goofed up and called it an error which it clearly is not, thanks for pointing my error out.
Back to PapiNe, I have to disagree with you re the so-called king of Vams as you noted, imho it is no where near the LDS Scarface die variety. But what do I know.
Thanks

yosclimber

@RobertScotLover said:
...
Back to PapiNe, I have to disagree with you re the so-called king of Vams as you noted, imho it is no where near the LDS Scarface die variety. But what do I know.

He was just answering your question about "Most Valuable".
He did not choose the nickname "King of the VAMs" - that name was chosen by others, and it is not unreasonable as it is sought after due to having both a TDO and DDR.
Maybe not as large a feature as the Scarface die crack, but collectors can choose their own criteria for why something interests them.

jfriedm56

@RobertScotLover said:
Thank you. A couple of more questions if I may.
PapiNE said there are a few hundred known, is that pertaining to the LDS with the die crack running thru its entirety? I am assuming you just mean the Vam-1B in all its die stages, but I am just looking into the latest die stage.
Yosclimber, yes my bad I goofed up and called it an error which it clearly is not, thanks for pointing my error out.
Back to PapiNe, I have to disagree with you re the so-called king of Vams as you noted, imho it is no where near the LDS Scarface die variety. But what do I know.
Thanks

I have been a fan of this Vam 1B H4 last die state of the 1888-O Scarface, ever since I found this example 30 years ago in a dealer’s common silver dollar box. As far as I can tell, not nearly a “few hundred “, have been found in the full length H-10 terminal die state you are referring to, which extends down to the middle curl in Miss Liberty’s hair. This example shows what I’m talking about. For more info you may want to read Harrison’s book on the coin.

RobertScotLover

@yosclimber said:

@RobertScotLover said:
...
Back to PapiNe, I have to disagree with you re the so-called king of Vams as you noted, imho it is no where near the LDS Scarface die variety. But what do I know.

He was just answering your question about "Most Valuable".
He did not choose the nickname "King of the VAMs" - that name was chosen by others, and it is not unreasonable as it is sought after due to having both a TDO and DDR.
Maybe not as large a feature as the Scarface die crack, but collectors can choose their own criteria for why something interests them.

I believe my poor writing skills maybe to blame. I was not being disrespectful to PapiNe, I understand that he was restating what is written, he was very helpful in providing that info and I appreciated it. I just was caught off guard upon viewing the so-called King of the VAms because it surprised me that such a label would be put on a variety that imho could easily be missed by collectors, where as the Scarface LDS cannot. Thats all.
A also appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness.
Thanks

RobertScotLover

Jfriedman56,
that example that you presented is phenomenal in all respects. I would call that variety the Kind of all VAms in a heartbeat.
Thanks

yspsales

1888o just jumps out at you..... Queen of the Vam's maybe?

Curiously, there are nearly 75 Scarface graded in mint state vs about 12 Triple Blossom's.

Would have thought there would be many more VAM 44's in existence

jfriedm56

Even though there may be 75 Scarface graded in MS and labeled as such, many of those don’t even contain the scar on her cheek (upto and including stage 6). Stages 7-10 are truly Scarface and the numbers are considerably lower than 75.

PapiNE

VamWorld indicates 70 known King of Vams. Last night I counted approx 200 graded Scarfaces between ANACS and PCGS. Add in other TPGs that label variety and the total number would increase. As to rarity, there are many Vams where only one or two have been discovered but they don't have the charm exibited by Scarface, Thornhead, Alligator Eye, Spitting Eagle, et al. Like many hobbies, you make of it what you will.

RobertScotLover

I am now learning and understanding that because the grading companies label many 1880-o's scarface the truth is that a mistake is inadvertently being made. IMHO only those stages 7-10 should be called Scarface and with good reason and all the rest should not be, and with that one can easily extrapolate that the true Scarface population has been vastly overstated and is much much rarer than believed. The grading companies really are to blame for this snafu and hopefully one day the nonScarface examples can be removed from the pop.
Another reason I take all pops with a grain of salt.
This board does a great job at educating.
Thanks
P.S. another check is that one rarely sees any of them and when we do it seems like its the same ones being pulled out of the safe. I have never been able to find many granted I am no expert but I know how ro research and challenge anyone here to produce many examples.:)

Tibor

If you look at the 1977 edition of the VAM book the "Scarface" was
not even a recognized variety. The only one that was for the year/mm ,was the "Hot Lips"
variety. There were a few very minor ones, none worth mentioning.
"Scarface" is recognized in the 3rd edition, printed in 1991. While there may be
a few rarer VAMs from the Morgan series, the 1878 VAM 44 will always be
known as the "King of VAMs. When I bought my VAM 44 from Bill Fivaz,
there were less than 25 known, early 80s. @messydesk will be able to
update the approximate population now.

Imaged by Todd

Typekat

@jfriedm56 said:
Even though there may be 75 Scarface graded in MS and labeled as such, many of those don’t even contain the scar on her cheek (upto and including stage 6). Stages 7-10 are truly Scarface and the numbers are considerably lower than 75.

Exactly! If there’s no scar on the face…what you have is the pre-Scarface stage of that particular obverse die.

RobertScotLover

@Tibor said:
If you look at the 1977 edition of the VAM book the "Scarface" was
not even a recognized variety. The only one that was for the year/mm ,was the "Hot Lips"
variety. There were a few very minor ones, none worth mentioning.
"Scarface" is recognized in the 3rd edition, printed in 1991. While there may be
a few rarer VAMs from the Morgan series, the 1878 VAM 44 will always be
known as the "King of VAMs. When I bought my VAM 44 from Bill Fivaz,
there were less than 25 known, early 80s. @messydesk will be able to
update the approximate population now.

Imaged by Todd

I have to repeat my back message, I see nothing when viewing the photos, this cam is hyped and to be even more deliberate over-hyped in my estimate. Maybe when using a loupe one can see doubling , but I see nothing off the pictures. I just felt that needed to be said, not trying to knock the Vamer Community by as a famous actor once said " I see nothing" (Hogan's Heroes).

Tibor

@RobertScotLover 90+% of the VAMs are hard to discern with out some
serious magnification. Most 7/8 tailfeathers do no need visual aid. The
"Clash E's "need aid about half the dates. The 1887 7/6 Orleans does.
There are others. I agree that the VAM 44 needs a loupe to see. The
"Scar Face", while easy to see, will always play 2nd fiddle to the VAM 44.
For now .

PapiNE

You're not wrong to appreciate Vams that are only visable to the unaided eye. Some might say that a mere crack, no matter it's location, is still just a crack. I own the Vam 33, a very ordinary relative to the King 44 and think the reverse doubled talons, looked at as variety, are IMO more significant than the Scarface. But it's the experience of seeing the talons thru a loupe (I was new to Vaming), doing a double-take of what I was seeing, then scrambling to find it in the VAM listings. My heart beat faster as I found it, then saw the reference to the 44 and the tripled blossum, and anxiouly turned the coin over. Rats, no tripling!! But it got me hooked and I continue the hunt.

messydesk

@Tibor said:
If you look at the 1977 edition of the VAM book the "Scarface" was
not even a recognized variety.

It was discovered in 1979. Jeff Oxman was selling BUs out of a roll of them for $100 a coin in the late 80s. The full Scarface is a tough coin, a real head turner, and almost always MS62. Not the rarest VAM, but one of the most in-demand.

@RobertScotLover said:
I have to repeat my back message, I see nothing when viewing the photos, this cam is hyped and to be even more deliberate over-hyped in my estimate. Maybe when using a loupe one can see doubling , but I see nothing off the pictures. I just felt that needed to be said, not trying to knock the Vamer Community by as a famous actor once said " I see nothing" (Hogan's Heroes).

It's the rarest 7/8 TF VAM and is in demand. Yes, you need a glass to see the tripling, and I can't see it well in the photo, but everyone wants one. It was first documented as a Morgan variety by Francis X. Klaes in 1963 before Leroy started working on what would eventually become the VAM book. The "King of VAMs" title was bestowed while writing the Top 100 book in 1996. It's not as rare as it was then, and there are other varieties higher on people's lists of what they'd sell family members for, but it's still very popular.