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This auction should be fun to watch

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

I was doing my daily ebay searches and ran across this puppy, 2022 Sportkings Babe Ruth Cut Signature Auto 1/1, 6 days still left to go in the auction, it's already up to $2,850. I find these types of items to be fascinating, considering that a major trading card company inserted this signature into a card, you know it's authentic as opposed to buying a Babe Ruth signature in the wild and not knowing if it's authentic. This puppy is the real deal and I enjoy watching the competition for stuff like this.

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am especially cautious of autos i did not receive in person. Even from the card companies. Nothing is 100% I remember the upper deck card from many years ago with the fake Walter Johnson auto

    https://www.nydailynews.com/2006/02/19/a-sign-of-the-times-forgeries-take-card-companies-for-a-ride/

    The authenticators get duped too. there was a big scandal a few years ago with SGC authenticating a bunch of fake T206 autographed cards as well.

    It probably is real. just be cautious if you bid.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    2dueces2dueces Posts: 6,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks good to me… because I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night

    W.C.Fields
    "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
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    doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I am especially cautious of autos i did not receive in person. Even from the card companies. Nothing is 100% I remember the upper deck card from many years ago with the fake Walter Johnson auto

    https://www.nydailynews.com/2006/02/19/a-sign-of-the-times-forgeries-take-card-companies-for-a-ride/

    The authenticators get duped too. there was a big scandal a few years ago with SGC authenticating a bunch of fake T206 autographed cards as well.

    It probably is real. just be cautious if you bid.

    Wow, I've never heard about that before, that is insane, I didn't realize the forgers fooled the trading card companies. I'm going to start doing some serious research before I buy any cut signature cards from here on!

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    streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A buddy of mine in Ohio, Dave M., bought a Tris Speaker bat at a closed costume shop this last year. Had it authenticated as 'game used'.
    Sold at auction for $38,000. No seller fee. Goldn auctions.
    He called me to cry about the income tax. Lol.
    He paid $20.

    Have a nice day
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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @craig44 said:
    I am especially cautious of autos i did not receive in person. Even from the card companies. Nothing is 100% I remember the upper deck card from many years ago with the fake Walter Johnson auto

    https://www.nydailynews.com/2006/02/19/a-sign-of-the-times-forgeries-take-card-companies-for-a-ride/

    The authenticators get duped too. there was a big scandal a few years ago with SGC authenticating a bunch of fake T206 autographed cards as well.

    It probably is real. just be cautious if you bid.

    Wow, I've never heard about that before, that is insane, I didn't realize the forgers fooled the trading card companies. I'm going to start doing some serious research before I buy any cut signature cards from here on!

    yeah, I didnt mean to yuck your yum, but just wanted you to be aware. there have also been problems with card company's pack inserted on-card autos. a few years ago, Beckett caught Dak Prescott on card pack inserted autos that had been auto-penned. there are also Luka autos that were signed by someone other than luka.

    unfortunately, card companies dont send an actual representative along with the cards to be signed. often they will use a players family member as an "official" representative of a signing.

    that is why unless i was there to see an autograph actually signed, i am skeptical.

    if you want to research, there was a big thread on blowout about the SGC "signed" T206 debacle. I believe it actually led to them leaving the vintage signed authentication space.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I am especially cautious of autos i did not receive in person. Even from the card companies. Nothing is 100% I remember the upper deck card from many years ago with the fake Walter Johnson auto

    https://www.nydailynews.com/2006/02/19/a-sign-of-the-times-forgeries-take-card-companies-for-a-ride/

    The authenticators get duped too. there was a big scandal a few years ago with SGC authenticating a bunch of fake T206 autographed cards as well.

    It probably is real. just be cautious if you bid.

    I posted this a few weeks ago in a thread on the Trading Cards forum:

    I may have mentioned this story before. When I was in the 5th grade, there was a fellow classmate named Mike. Super nice guy, well liked by everyone. Well you could show Mike a picture, say of a WW2 plane, and in minutes with a pencil he could sketch it to astonishing accuracy. He could do that with faces, anything.

    While I don't recall him ever doing it with signatures, I'm sure that at first asking or with just a little bit of practice, he could look at a sig, then sign with a pen, a replica of a Mantle autograph or anybody else with extreme accuracy. I doubt if any normal collector would be able to tell the difference between Mike's sig and the real thing.

    I wonder how many Mikes are out there with the same talent? Some not so honest, who could use their talent for illicit purposes.

    This I do know - I would never purchase a Mantle autograph unless it was certified by PSA or had the proper provenance. And the proper provenance would not include some guy's word for it at an antique store or some tall tale from an Ebay seller.

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To blow your minds about autographs a little further in addition to what I stated about Mike. I never see much about this when it comes to authenticating autographs.

    Three things:

    1. Vintage autographs back then of course weren't nearly as valuable then as they are today. Doesn't mean they had no value back then. There were "Mikes" back then who could fake them. So if an authenticator is paying most of his attention to the aging of the ink, that may not be sufficient.

    2. I've perused antique shops many times in the past. I've seen blank pads of unused vintage paper a number of times. So if an authenticator is paying too much attention to the age of the paper, that may not be sufficient. As a Mike could simply buy the old unused paper, and sign on that.

    3. Estate sales. Are you kidding me? In my opinion too many estate sales produce the most fraudulent memorabilia out there. I mean let's take the estate sale of a famous ballplayer for example Elmer. Well let's say an Elmer game used bat is worth 100k, perhaps much more. I've seen old bats for sale numerous times. The estate may be a third or fourth generation away from Elmer, and couldn't really care less about their great grandfather when it comes to making money. So the estate owner simply finds and buys an old bat somewhere that makes sense for the time period, he says that Elmer used it in a game, the auction company places that info on their auction, and the bat sells for 100k. Everybody gets paid and the buyer unknowingly now has a bat that Elmer never even saw.

    The estate could do Elmer autographs or hand written Elmer letters in the exact same manner as mentioned.

    Bottom line - I've seen those PSA authenticators on that TV show Pawn Stars. They definitely know their chit - very impressive. They I would trust for authentication because they look at everything, and carefully. Or as mentioned, if the item has the proper provenance, I'd be fine with that as well.

    Anything else, hey do whatever ya want, but I ain't buying. Although I've heard that Fred's Authentication Kard ** Enterprises is a rising star in the industry. 😉

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @craig44 said:
    I am especially cautious of autos i did not receive in person. Even from the card companies. Nothing is 100% I remember the upper deck card from many years ago with the fake Walter Johnson auto

    https://www.nydailynews.com/2006/02/19/a-sign-of-the-times-forgeries-take-card-companies-for-a-ride/

    The authenticators get duped too. there was a big scandal a few years ago with SGC authenticating a bunch of fake T206 autographed cards as well.

    It probably is real. just be cautious if you bid.

    I posted this a few weeks ago in a thread on the Trading Cards forum:

    I may have mentioned this story before. When I was in the 5th grade, there was a fellow classmate named Mike. Super nice guy, well liked by everyone. Well you could show Mike a picture, say of a WW2 plane, and in minutes with a pencil he could sketch it to astonishing accuracy. He could do that with faces, anything.

    While I don't recall him ever doing it with signatures, I'm sure that at first asking or with just a little bit of practice, he could look at a sig, then sign with a pen, a replica of a Mantle autograph or anybody else with extreme accuracy. I doubt if any normal collector would be able to tell the difference between Mike's sig and the real thing.

    I wonder how many Mikes are out there with the same talent? Some not so honest, who could use their talent for illicit purposes.

    This I do know - I would never purchase a Mantle autograph unless it was certified by PSA or had the proper provenance. And the proper provenance would not include some guy's word for it at an antique store or some tall tale from an Ebay seller.

    yes, i saw that post. and i agree. there are people out there who can forge in an uncanny way. Greg Marino was one.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:
    To blow your minds about autographs a little further in addition to what I stated about Mike. I never see much about this when it comes to authenticating autographs.

    Three things:

    1. Vintage autographs back then of course weren't nearly as valuable then as they are today. Doesn't mean they had no value back then. There were "Mikes" back then who could fake them. So if an authenticator is paying most of his attention to the aging of the ink, that may not be sufficient.

    2. I've perused antique shops many times in the past. I've seen blank pads of unused vintage paper a number of times. So if an authenticator is paying too much attention to the age of the paper, that may not be sufficient. As a Mike could simply buy the old unused paper, and sign on that.

    3. Estate sales. Are you kidding me? In my opinion too many estate sales produce the most fraudulent memorabilia out there. I mean let's take the estate sale of a famous ballplayer for example Elmer. Well let's say an Elmer game used bat is worth 100k, perhaps much more. I've seen old bats for sale numerous times. The estate may be a third or fourth generation away from Elmer, and couldn't really care less about their great grandfather when it comes to making money. So the estate owner simply finds and buys an old bat somewhere that makes sense for the time period, he says that Elmer used it in a game, the auction company places that info on their auction, and the bat sells for 100k. Everybody gets paid and the buyer unknowingly now has a bat that Elmer never even saw.

    The estate could do Elmer autographs or hand written Elmer letters in the exact same manner as mentioned.

    Bottom line - I've seen those PSA authenticators on that TV show Pawn Stars. They definitely know their chit - very impressive. They I would trust for authentication because they look at everything, and carefully. Or as mentioned, if the item has the proper provenance, I'd be fine with that as well.

    Anything else, hey do whatever ya want, but I ain't buying. Although I've heard that Fred's Authentication Kard ** Enterprises is a rising star in the industry. 😉

    i question even the big authenticators. I was at a small show one time that James Spence himself was "authenticating" at. people were bringing in vintage balls etc. Well, I posted up near his table and just watched him "work" for a while.

    I was thoroughly unimpressed. people would drop their items off and he would "authenticate" That entailed him very very briefly looking at an item. I mean like 5 seconds. it appeared to me very very casual. no special lighting, no blacklights, no magnification and while i was watching (30-40 min) i never once saw him look to his laptop for exemplars. He was also very casual with the way he handled the items. no gloves or anything.

    that brief experience from the man himself definitely took the shine right of 3rd party "authentication" for me. just my personal experience. others may have had different.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great info @craig44, and @stevek, thanks for the tips guys. I've always been fascinated with cut signature cards and autographs in general, I occasionally purchase one if the right item pops up on ebay, I will definitely be doing thorough research before making any purchases. Another thing I would suggest when buying anything from ebay, always check the sellers feedback thoroughly to see how they handle their business. You can usually get a good picture of a sellers character just from checking feedback.

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @stevek said:
    To blow your minds about autographs a little further in addition to what I stated about Mike. I never see much about this when it comes to authenticating autographs.

    Three things:

    1. Vintage autographs back then of course weren't nearly as valuable then as they are today. Doesn't mean they had no value back then. There were "Mikes" back then who could fake them. So if an authenticator is paying most of his attention to the aging of the ink, that may not be sufficient.

    2. I've perused antique shops many times in the past. I've seen blank pads of unused vintage paper a number of times. So if an authenticator is paying too much attention to the age of the paper, that may not be sufficient. As a Mike could simply buy the old unused paper, and sign on that.

    3. Estate sales. Are you kidding me? In my opinion too many estate sales produce the most fraudulent memorabilia out there. I mean let's take the estate sale of a famous ballplayer for example Elmer. Well let's say an Elmer game used bat is worth 100k, perhaps much more. I've seen old bats for sale numerous times. The estate may be a third or fourth generation away from Elmer, and couldn't really care less about their great grandfather when it comes to making money. So the estate owner simply finds and buys an old bat somewhere that makes sense for the time period, he says that Elmer used it in a game, the auction company places that info on their auction, and the bat sells for 100k. Everybody gets paid and the buyer unknowingly now has a bat that Elmer never even saw.

    The estate could do Elmer autographs or hand written Elmer letters in the exact same manner as mentioned.

    Bottom line - I've seen those PSA authenticators on that TV show Pawn Stars. They definitely know their chit - very impressive. They I would trust for authentication because they look at everything, and carefully. Or as mentioned, if the item has the proper provenance, I'd be fine with that as well.

    Anything else, hey do whatever ya want, but I ain't buying. Although I've heard that Fred's Authentication Kard ** Enterprises is a rising star in the industry. 😉

    i question even the big authenticators. I was at a small show one time that James Spence himself was "authenticating" at. people were bringing in vintage balls etc. Well, I posted up near his table and just watched him "work" for a while.

    I was thoroughly unimpressed. people would drop their items off and he would "authenticate" That entailed him very very briefly looking at an item. I mean like 5 seconds. it appeared to me very very casual. no special lighting, no blacklights, no magnification and while i was watching (30-40 min) i never once saw him look to his laptop for exemplars. He was also very casual with the way he handled the items. no gloves or anything.

    that brief experience from the man himself definitely took the shine right of 3rd party "authentication" for me. just my personal experience. others may have had different.

    Good info and completely agree. Ya gotta use those important tools you mentioned. Otherwise in my opinion, the authenticator is doing a lackadaisical job at best.

    I think it's important to remember that anything made by man, can be faked by man. Particularly if there is enough money involved in doing it.

    I know there's even been some paintings from famous artists which have been faked. Then sold for a lot of money before finally it somehow gets figured out that it's a fake. Perhaps from the owner who has the original and basically comes forth and says, hey i own the original so that one you bought can't be it - LOL.

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    doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good show, enjoyed it!

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    2dueces2dueces Posts: 6,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Funny thing is I’ve seen pictures of Ruth signing cases of balls. It amazes me that people even have to forge his signature.

    W.C.Fields
    "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    wow that was a very strong price in the current market.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am surprised there is any shortage of Ruth autos as well. He signed a ton!!

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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