NewP- 1849 'Platinum' 'Dollar' ***Update*** RWB drops some knowledge***
cmerlo1
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I purchased two double-row boxes of assorted errors and varieties (and less than half of them actually were) at the Houston show yesterday. Of the coins that weren't damaged or misidentified, there were some really good varieties, decent errors, a Henning nickel, and this coin. It's obviously a contemporary counterfeit 1849 gold dollar. Any gold coloring or plating has long since gone. What piqued my interest is the really old flip it was in, which said 'Platinum'. Not really sure why anyone would make a counterfeit out of a more valuable metal, and the logical, Occam's Razor answer is that it isn't and was mis-identified by whomever typed the card long ago. Can anyone think of why that might not be the case? Just for grins I will be taking it to one of my local dealer buddies to be tested.
Comments
Interesting 🧐
Mr_Spud
What would the approximate value of platinum have been (compared to gold) at the time the coin might have been produced?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Good question.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Pretty cool whatever it is. Obviously a metal scanner will tell you what it is but while you wait you could do a specific gravity test to see if it’s in the realm of possibility.
Looks like a contemporary counterfeit with the plating worn off. Pretty cool.
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It doesnt appear to have been gold plated. There would be traces of the plating still evident. Not likely to be platinum either.
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I found this chart which goes back to 1880.
In 1885 Platinum was 5% the price of gold.
https://www.antiquesage.com/detailed-history-platinum-gold-ratio/
Thank you. So maybe it would have been worth it for a counterfeiter to have used platinum.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Platinum was worth considerably less in that era and was close to gold in specific gravity.
I read somewhere that they also “hollowed out” gold coins and replaced the gold with platinum. Have looked for an example for decades without success so I doubt the reference.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
The demand for catalytic converters in the 19th Century was quite limited.
Thanks for the replies!
Roger Burdette still checks in on the forums here and he sent me the following email, along with some scans of documents discussing the use of platinum in counterfeiting. Good stuff! It confirms the info in the last few posts regarding platinum:
_Christian,
Platinum was much cheaper than gold, and was considered a contaminant. It was common, along with iridium and osmium, in most California gold. Russia used it for 3, 6 and 12-ruble coins but it was too easily confused with silver to become a routine coinage metal.
Counterfeiters and coin adulteraters used platinum plugs to debase gold coins. The crook cut into the gold coin's edge and removed as much gold as they could scrape out. A plug of platinum was inserted and adjusted so the weight was correct, and the edge filled with brass, reeded and plated. I've attached a couple of historical documents from 1860 relating to this.
Hoping all are well.
Roger Burdette
PS: If the counterfeit dollar is made of platinum, it will weigh about the same as gold. Silver plated brass, or silver will weigh much less._
I will weigh the piece sometime tomorrow and compare to the weight in the Redbook.
Even if platinum, the value of this is in its being a contemporary counterfeit, as there isn't a lot of metal in it.
It's actually just a silver planchet. Here's another example with some gold plating still present. No contemporary counterfeit gold dollars are known to have been struck on platinum planchets; quarter and half eagles, and maybe some eagles are known to have been struck on platinum planchets.
Back in the mid-1800s, and even earlier, platinum was much cheaper than gold (the Russian circulating platinum coins from the 1830s fixed the gold-platinum exchange rate in Russia at 1 ounce of gold equalling 3 ounces of platinum). It has about the same density as gold, too, so so a gilt-platinum counterfeit can easily fool someone relying on specific gravity and/or weight. This property made platinum an optimal metal for turning into counterfeit gold coins.
The main problem with platinum is the difficulty in working with it. Its melting point is very high (1768 deg C, 3215 deg F), so you can't simply melt and cast it; they just didn't have the technology to do that easily back in the mid-1800s. Platinum can be hammered and shaped easily, so once you've got your hands on a piece of platinum, you can turn it into a coin that way.
The Spanish gold mines in Colombia were rich in platinum too. The Spanish colonial authorities were aware of the potential for platinum counterfeits, so all of the platinum they mined in the 1600s and 1700s, got dumped into the river at a secret location. Needless to say, treasure-hunters and the Colombian authorities have been searching for that platinum dump ever since. Platinum counterfeits of Spanish-colonial gold coins are known, but not common, so they must have done a reasonable job at suppressing the platinum trade.
I don't know how the original owner proved it was platinum, but you'll want to get it tested. Platinum would be near-certain proof it's a contemporary counterfeit, because of the whole "nobody today would make a fake gold coin out of platinum" thing. Specific gravity or XRF should both prove definitive here. An authentically contemporary platinum counterfeit coin is probably going to be quite valuable, far beyond its platinum content.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
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Okay, my first post!
Richard Smith here - Longtime collector, 35yr coin dealer (retired), and lurker on this forum for years -until now!
Several decades ago, when I was a greenhorn coin dealer-in-training in Atlanta, Larry Jackson showed me a Dahlonega $5. It looked to be a nice Xf coin. I was interested in it, but he asked me if I had really taken a good luck at it. Puzzled, I looked again at both obverse and reverse. The coin looked fine to me.
Then he showed me where the coin had been drilled: on the outer edge in 3 places.
Two holes still had their plugs intact, and were very hard to spot at first, The obvious alteration was just one small, deep hole in the edge. There, one of the plugs had failed, and the platinum rod had fallen out.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Welcome, Richard.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Definitely the same dies- the repunched 9 in the date is one of the many giveaways. Thank you for this info!
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I suspect that since the holes would have to be small (smaller in diameter than the thickness of the coin) the drilling was not really an attempt to debase the coin and recover some gold. I would think the purpose would have been for some type of jewelry mounting.
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Agree. From what I've read, those that would drill and fill gold coins would target larger coins with thicker edges especially double eagles for obvious reasons. Cash registers from that era had marble ledges above the cash drawer which were decorative but also served a practical purpose. Merchants could drop a coin onto the marble ledge and listen for the ring of the coin. If it was a dull thud rather than a melodious ring, the coin would merit much closer examination. A drilled and filled gold coin would not pass this test. I am unaware of any drilled and fill gold coins that survived this this era which leads me to believe this fraud was not that prevalent and that they were discovered and pulled from circulation fairly quickly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There are some famous gold- plated platinum counterfeit Spanish coins from the same period.
Welcome, and thank you for the first-hand report.
I suspect (just a suspicion, I have no evidence) that this particular form of coin adulteration was more common back then than we suspect today. With the proper drilling setup it would be easier to do than the operation that sawed a $20 in half, routed out the centers of both halves and then rejoined the two with a platinum disc in the center, which we know happened. There you had to refinish the entire edge, replacing the reeding, instead of simply installing a few small plugs.
If I were the Treasury back then I would have found out who was buying platinum wire.
Thanks, Captain!
And for years I’ve been itching to ask you,
What’s a Henway, anyway?
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
It could just be my eyes but the obverse of the OP coin appears to have some gold tinge near the rim border. This coin appears oxidized silver and not platinum unless of reduced fineness - which I am unfamiliar with. My be is on silver but a simple hold in hand would be enough. Or a weigh in barring that.....
Well, just Love coins, period.
As a gold dollar collector, I have to say I’ve really enjoyed this thread. Maybe one day I’ll find a nice contemporary counterfeit (affordable) to add to my collection…
About 3 pounds.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The answer to the "why platinum?" question, by the way, is straightforward, I think. Contemporary counterfeit detection relied largely on weight and sometimes acid. Silver has a density of 10.5 g/mL. Gold is 19.4 g/mL. Platinum is 21.5 g/mL. Only gold and platinum have similar acid resistance in the 22 karat range - silver won't hold. And a silver coin would need to be twice the size to match the weight.
Base metals have lower densities and won't hold up against acid.
If you search for GP Dyer on the internet, you can find references where the investigations of Platinum counterfeits started in 1848-1849 in England. (Co-incidentally the same years this dollar was minted) There were numerous French, Spanish and British gold coins counterfeits made in the mid 1800s by using Platinum (then almost worthless compared to gold) mixed with Copper. A standard ratio of about 96.6:3.4 would get the density of Pt down from 21.5 to the 19ish region where it would match with gold. This would allow the coins to pass the anti-counterfeit tests of the day (I forgot the name of the instrument, but they checked weight, thickness and diameter simultaneously in comparison to a genuine coin). The coins would then be given a thin gold plating/wash to adjust the appearance.
The copper used could also have given a dull reddish/brown hue to the coins.
About three pounds!
Check my post three posts above your post.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Who needs Wikipedia? This forum teaches a noob just about anything about just about anything!
i.e., “About three pounds”
Double confirmation by 2 respected veterans with over 70k messages total between them!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
But mine is Official!
If the weight of a platinum piece should be similar to gold, it isn't platinum. The Red Book says a gold piece should weigh 1.672 grams, so this piece is significantly lighter.
Agreed. The only reason - the only reason - why you'd use platinum to make a counterfeit gold coin instead of something else, is to try to get the weight right without being suspiciously thick. Platinum is in every other respect a poor choice: difficult to work with, and hard to obtain.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
‘Official’, but not ‘First Strike’
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!