Attention Variety Owners/Collectors - Trust & Value Destroyed
keyman64
Posts: 15,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
It seems our host has removed many varieties from complete variety sets this week. You may have noticed that variety registry sets will indicate they are updated. This is a result of the new Cherrypicker’s Guide and some decisions our host has made. The CPG has been a very flawed system for a very long time. The book focuses on the opinions of very few people with what seems to be heavily influenced by what the authors own or have access to, instead of what is known by the greater numismatic community on CONECA or Variety Vista. We are now seeing some of the damage this does to the numismatic community.
Between the 2012 edition and 2023, many varieties had demand and were significant enough to be a part of the complete variety sets. Heck, some of these varieties even pre-date the 2012 edition of the CPG. Now, with the decision of very few people involved, these same coins might not have any demand and are not significant enough? How any of this makes sense, I’m not sure.
Those involved with the CPG made their money. Then with the registry sets driving demand, our host has made their money from variety attribution services. Now, coin numbers have been removed! They no longer exist in Coin Facts. Coins that have sold for thousands of dollars (including at auctions) are now worth a fraction. Coins have sold for extremely high premiums over their non-variety counterparts…and now what?
Yes, by participating in the registry people acknowledge that coins can be added or removed from the registry whenever PCGS wants. That doesn’t make it right. We have a huge trust problem now, in addition to the value problem. For over a decade, many varieties were in registry sets and accepted. There was a trust they would always be there.
Warning! Before the CPG Sixth Edition Volume III comes out or Seventh Edition Volume I… you might want to reconsider if your coin value is secure.
I know people that have potentially lost several thousands of dollars because of this decision! Some people tens of thousands of dollars?! Do you want to be next? Who knows what whim of a decision will be made with the next flawed CPG editions? Or for how long things might be deemed significant.
If a few people that are in the position to make these wide-reaching decisions want to claim there’s a lack of demand for certain coins then let’s have a discussion about the prices they achieve in auction and how they compare to the regular issues. How about the Top Pop examples?
Trust=Broken
Value=Destroyed
Do Trust and Value mean anything to you when choosing a TPG?
People should call PCGS to share their thoughts and ask questions.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Comments
Those involved with the variety side of the hobby have seen this happening recently - but I never expected to see it on a large scale.
A coin here, maybe another there.... how many have changed? More than 20? 100?
I agree this is not a small problem for the brand...
Coin Photographer.
Two were removed from the Mercury Dime series from what I can tell right now. I don’t know if they are done removing things or not. They have not added any new varieties from the recent CPG yet. And if they add new ones, will they be removed within a few years? Who has any trust in this system?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
No I do not want to be next.
Can you be specific, series, varieties?
Never understood why PCGS decided to give so much merit to the CPG. With what I've seen posted from the most recent edition, the CPG has become an even bigger joke.
I've never been a varieties collector in any series but I feel for those of you that are. Just doesn't seem right
Good luck to you all
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Sounds like the Kool-Aid jug is getting low.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Something tells me this thread won’t last long. And yes it is a huge drag on the system when the leader changes the game
Martin
They really can't win. If they include varieties, people complain. If they exclude varieties, people complain. Why would you collect based on someone else's idea of what you should collect?
Yes... as a result I have all my coins raw. If you put all of your assets in a company that is highly opinionated that solely runs on subjective opinions, things can go south really fast.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
‘’Why would you collect based on someone else's idea of what you should collect?’’
BINGO!
Also, I completely understand the position of the OP who addresses those folks that do play by the rules set by others and are then getting burned in the end when the rug is pulled out from under them.
But, as far as the claim that “insiders” are essentially behind the changes in these books - that’s a double edge sword. Consider this -
I, personally, enjoy the “nightcrawler” as a major variety in the Ike Dollar proof series. I believe the coin should have probably already been included in the cherrypickers’ guide. But, it isn’t. And, it’s very difficult to locate - I find maybe one or two (or sometimes none) all year in my hunt of tens of thousands of fresh (and non fresh) proof Ike dollars. If I had to guess, maybe I have 5-10 (undesignated) pieces now in inventory in both raw and PR69DCAM holders.
I’ve never asked CPG to include this coin in their book. What if one day in the future I do ask (because I enjoy it) and they like the variety and decide to include it in the next edition? Was I an “insider” of the CPG? Or, just an astute collector who collected what I liked, and not what was spoon fed down my throat?
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
That's an interesting variety that I wasn't aware of until now.
Thanks
Some of the variety inclusion seems arbitrary. I think that is the point.
IMO if the variety is so esoteric as to be almost insignificant in the appearance or differences then it should be excluded by the TPG.
The TPG has every right to make a business decision based on economics. I am sure they could fill up an office building of series experts to label every known variety in every series.
Have you contacted anyone at PCGS who's involved with the Registry Sets, in order to try to discuss this with them?
This highlights an extremely thorny issue - once a grading company has gone on record with recognizing a variety, an over-date, a determination that certain coins were produced only as Proofs, as opposed to business-strikes or vice versa, etc., at what point, if any, are they justified in reversing course?
In general, it seems that the longer a policy has been in effect, the greater the requirement should be that the change is justified. And any good that might result from such a change in policy should be weighed against any (financial or other) harm it might cause to those who have relied upon it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Or even those silent few who just relied upon it. [Just because you do it to me!
]
I've never been big fan of minor varieties beyond what they can teach us about the production and distribution of coins. Certainly any variety, and especially minor varieties can pass in and out of style but I never really thought of a "market risk" per se.
There are several possible solutions here from reweighting to new sets. I'm a fan of registry sets and would be an even bigger fan If sets could be individualized a little bit more so that I wouldn't have to collect minor varieties or other coins that don't interest me as much.
can you supply a link or describe the nightcrawler?
Thank you, I sincerely appreciate that and will edit accordingly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
peacockcoins
There’s a huge difference between excluding a variety from the outset vs. recognizing one for a long period of time and then discontinuing recognition of it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree, would not be happy if it happened to a variety I collect.
However, there come a point economically where the TPG cannot take the time to continually consult the attribution guides or experts and verify varieties that are collected or appear sporadically in the system. Someone has to play G-d or we will be paying $500 for checking the variety attribution box.
I definitely sympathize with those who are impacted by this.
Having said that, if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Lots of money has been made by the simple act of a variety being listed, and now the opposite is occurring.
I'd personally prefer they lower the set weighting on a minor variety than to exclude it entirely. It's true people DO pay $$$ to have a recognized variety in their sets, and to delete them without cause (ie. the variety debunked, etc.) seems unfair.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Why would I collect based on someone else opinions... well, for me...
It was a starting place. I would never have known there were varieties until I saw them listed.
It gave me insight collecting those coins in a list... to see first hand what a variety looked like. It gave me a bit of excitement finding something that might be a new or unlisted variety.
There is no sole holder of information... you find info as you learn and you base what you collect based on your experiences.
I can see the "business" changing policy, but that doesn't have to impact past decisions. If a coin was deemed a variety in the past, it should remain so unless new information comes out to the contrary... like if a variety was found to be mass forgery, not because they aren't popular... that is determined by demand. Not many folks collect Uncirculated 16D Mercury Dimes, so eliminate them???
Last night I won a bid for a Merc variety... when I first bid, I did so based on a PCGS Retail value of $550... double checking where my bid was at just before auction close, I double checked to determine what additional if any funds I could spare... the price dropped to $36 and the PCGS number was gone... and I won the auction at $402...
I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378
I personally don't collect varieties, but if I did, I'd be extremely ticked off.
Interesting.
jmlanzaf's reaction, "Why would you collect based on someone else's idea of what you should collect," is one of the things that drove the SSDC to develop its own registry for VAMs. All VAMs can be registered, often using my attributions rather than a TPGs, any set composition can be created, although mainstream sets (Top 100, 1878 8TF, &c.) exist that are the most competitive. This is where you ask, "Isn't the Top 100 list just someone else's idea of what you should collect?" Yes, it is, but it was a list of coins created by people on the inside of that hobby and then pushed to the grading services to follow once it became mainstream. The only variety to be removed from it was one that was later determined not to exist. The grading services had and have no influence over the content of this list and they're kept at arm's length with respect to attributions.
I would be interested in PCGS's rationale for dropping a lot of varieties from long-established set compositions. Did they actually not foresee the reaction above when they effectively crashed values of people's collections? Did they drop these because they have too many complaints about misattributed coins?
Finally, if competitive registries on MyCollect really get off the ground, I imagine specialists in other series will settle in there for their competitions. MyCollect wouldn't even have to sponsor awards, simply provide a platform for the competition to take place and for specialty clubs to create sets that suit them best. When a MyCollect-based registry award is valued to the same degree that a PCGS registry award is, specialists won't be at the mercy of grading service decisions.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
From what I understand, variety numbers do not get removed from the CPG. The pictures may, but the numbers are put in the back of the book.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
That may be true, but for some of us, it is gone from PCGS and si is its value... in my case, here yesterday, gone today.
It just ain't right.
I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378
This is a fluid hobby. New opinions and restructured results are (or should be) par for the course.
Look at how things changed with the 1914/3 Buffalo overdate. Look at the revised opinions on the Weak D 1922 Cents.
Who has disputed those opinions? Who has even disputed the results of those studies?
I also got hurt by the new research and results on certain long standing varieties.
I accept it as a matter of course with the way this hobby ebbs and flows.
But then again, that's just me.
Pete
When I collected as a YN my knowledge of varieties was limited to the 1955 DDO cent, the 1969 S DDO cent and the 1972 DDO cent. I looked for them and never found them.
When I returned to the hobby as an adult in 1998 I began to learn more about varieties. I purchased one of the earlier versions of the CPG and looked through most if not all of my raw coins to look for varieties. I found a few very minor varieties and was excited about doing so. However my interest in minor varieties waned.
I do not have the interest and drive to take a deep dive into varieties (many are impossible to see without a loupe). It would be interesting to learn what traits a dedicated variety collector has that are missing in a collector such as myself. Perhaps some dedicated variety collectors on the forums would be willing to post replies to this thread and disclose what motivates them to look for and collect varieties.
A better photo of a nightcrawler variety with a TrueView:
Edited to add a closeup:
peacockcoins
What a mess
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Sometimes there are more dramatic differences between dies of the same year and dies which are nearly identical except for the date or mm.
Of course one of my largest interests in minor varieties are the insights provided into the production and distribution of the coins. Major varieties are important simply because they have such large differences.
Agreed. If it is still in the CPG, PCGS should continue to recognize it as well.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Isn't $36 the type price not the (unlisted) variety price?
To be clear, my point is that people can continue to collect the varieties whether PCGS recognizes them or not. This has been going on NOW with all the varieties that they don't recognize.
Long live the goiter neck!
Yes... but now they don't show a variety... and last week, when they fid show a variety, they had it at $550. There is no indication of that now.
I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378
I am a merc dime variety collector.
The only thing that gave some of the varieties a 10x or more in value over the ordinary coin, was the fact those varieties were listed in pcgs registry.
In my variety set, the 1939 ddo and the 1945 ddo were dropped.
I lost approximately a thousand dollars in value with this poorly made decision.
I also have countless hours of searching for varieties.
I have also lost the shipping costs and grading fees that included additional fees for variety attribution.
I am really not pleased with the people responsible for making the decision to drop coins from the registry.
It is concerning to me that one author of one book was used as the basis to make a decision to remove varieties that have been part of a set for 10+ years.
So to sum it up, I regret becoming a variety collector.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
People need to call and email PCGS to complain. I only know two people that have. One person has lost thousands of dollars because of this and another person has lost well into 5-Figures across his 27 or 28 varieties that were impacted because he has so many sets!
Trust & Value was absolutely destroyed by these actions. These coins have been widely accepted for more than 10 years! These actions are terrible! They made a market for these coins, made money from variety attribution/grading fees and in one quick decision destroyed so so much.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I’m just waiting and praying for them to de-list the 1979-S and 1981-S T1 and T2’s. I’ve spent too many hours looking for them, and I consider that portion of my life wasted.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I wrote yesterday... and a post here today... I either lost a great purchase of a coin that I've been looking for for about 4 years or over paid $400.00
I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378
You must be the proud owner of this now crazy overpriced 1945 ddo. I have one just like it, I paid over $500. Aren't we dumb?
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
But variety collectors should still pay a premium.
As Oliver Hardy said....Here's another fine mess you've gotten us into!
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8
You do know that probably 80% of the people here won't know what you're talking about...............
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Wait, just because a variety isn't listed in one reference source anymore and a TPG no longer includes them in variety registry sets, that means the market as a whole no longer regards them as varieties and demand just evaporates? That doesn't sound right.
If we don't know who Oliver Hardy is that says it all... there really is no hope.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Like @messydesk , I too would like to hear an explanation for why PCGS dropped these varieties. The varieties have not been delisted; they are still CPG varieties with valid FS numbers. The descriptions of these varieties have simply been removed from the new edition (to save on printing costs, I would imagine - it certainly is pared down from the former edition, page-wise, and the paper is cheaper too...). Perhaps this is all a misunderstanding on the part of PCGS, thinking that these varieties were actually delisted...
I have to give you guys credit you can find those varieties without an electron microscope.
The 1967 SMS Kennedy "Dot Head" never really took off. . .
peacockcoins