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1827, 1828 and 1829 Bolivian, 4 Soles

SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 29, 2023 2:38PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I’ve been looking for one of these coins for a few years. ANY example. Turns out they don’t really show up, at all. Possibly they just don’t exist, possibly because any that do are tightly held. The 8soles version is fairly common, but the smaller size is pretty tough. I’ve only seen one for sale during the time I’ve been looking, and this is it. It’s low grade and has, what I think, are largely flan imperfections.

Love to see more if anyone has one, feel free to post it. I honestly don’t know how many exist, or if anyone even has the answer to that question. I know of just a handful across all three dates.


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Comments

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2023 3:23PM

    On a quick look found this one on ebay just moments ago:

    Edit: Removed the part where I posted, have seen these dates, got confused with the date posted above.

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭

    I know you are looking for those three dates, won't be easy

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭

    Per HA very rare date...

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭

    Where I found the above: They have also a 1827 XF45 sold on June 2, 2006.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2023 5:20PM

    @ELuis said:
    On a quick look found this one on ebay just moments ago:

    Edit: Removed the part where I posted, have seen these dates, got confused with the date posted above.

    The 1830 is abundantly easy to get, VERY difficult to find a really good strike however.

    Yes, thank you for pointing out the Heritage examples. I have seen those, to my knowledge they’re the finest out there. I haven’t done an exhaustive search, but they don’t show up regularly. I’m also aware of a few F-VF examples (Luis Para collection) verified by PCGS there’s also an XF in the census of a 1827, and I think two NGC pieces in the Brown Collection (FIne details 1827 and a VF30 1828/7.) The NGC census lists a dozen more, but I’ve never seen them show up anywhere. I assume the ones Heritage sold are probably listed among that number. Part of me wonders if they’re pieces that were certified by and exported back to Bolivia (where they rightly belong) because they don’t seem to have shown up in any of the well known markets or auction houses.

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am not aware of any in mint state, though I’m sure a few probably exist somewhere.

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  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2023 6:36AM

    Indeed, very hard to find these dates. And what you mention, that normally will be in low grades if any or in poor condition.

    Appears that also the ones minted in La PAZ are scarce too.

    When I was running my search, saw a 1830/27 or something like that, but lost the ebay page.

    I do not own any of these coin type.

    Edit: To add that apparently 1830/27:

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Paz is a tough one for sure. I have a couple handfuls of different denominations, some of them are nearly impossible, 1853 2 Soles comes to mind.

    The one you listed is actually one of the easier Paz pieces to get, I have a decent example, crappy photo though.


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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2023 5:29PM

    Another Paz piece, a little on the “original surfaces” side 🤣, not overly pleasing, but nicer in hand.


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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also a Paz 4 Sol

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  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭

    The 1860 FJ 4S one year type seems to scarce too.

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭

    Wow I see, that 2S is yes rare:

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ELuis said:
    The 1860 FJ 4S one year type seems to scarce too.

    That’s what they say, but honestly I’ve seen it show up a bunch. I think the price is too high on those. I’ve had a number of chances to get one but never have pulled the trigger.

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  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2023 6:31AM

    1827, 1828, 1829 4S:
    All three dates are definitely scarce, but do pop up occasionally. My casual observation is that the 1827 would be the most frequently seen of them.

    A quick title search of Worthpoint eBay archives brings up three 1827, one 1828, two 1829.

    Here was a 1828 mixed in a group lot earlier this year. Not horrid but old scratch or adjustment mark reverse:
    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-10GW2Z/bolivia-quartet-of-4-soles-4-pieces-1828-60-average-grade-fine

    A mid-grade 1828 mixed in a group lot out of Germany:
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=10955837

    One other impression I have always gotten is that the prices for lesser grade examples of any of the 1827-1829 Bolivian minors (1/2S through 4S, almost all of which are scarce to rare) seem to be underwhelming for how tough they are to find.

    =====================

    La Paz 4S:
    The 1854 and 1855 are scarce, but definitely can be found. Then 1856, then the other dates.

    =====================

    Potosi 1860 4S:
    Yes, vastly overvalued in Krause, and actual selling prices "usually" reflect this. It IS fairly tough to find, though.

  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 338 ✭✭✭

    Then there's this, depicting Bolivar with a trucker porn 'stache AKA I call in to the Delilah show look:
    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-URSPR/bolivia-silver-4-soles-pattern-1827-pts-jm-potosi-mint-ngc-proof-63

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s a big boy coin @realeswatcher

    I appreciate your input. In your experience have you ever found one of these three dates in an AU or greater? I assume MS is truly rare.

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  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @ELuis said:
    Per HA very rare date...

    Wow. What a find.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Applejacks said:

    @ELuis said:
    Per HA very rare date...

    Wow. What a find.

    For sure, high AU at least. I would love to see this in hand. There’s some striations in the middle of the bolivar portrait. Can’t tell if it’s toning or scrapes. I would like to complete a set of XF or higher (ideally, nice AU coins.) This is the only pic I’ve seen of any of the three dates that fits the criteria.

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  • What a fascinating thread!!

    SimonW, thank you so much for starting this.

    Threads like these is one of the reason why I joined these forums.

    My observations from looking at these last night and this morning.

    1829 8 Soles are common enough but the lower denominations are tough to find.

    1830 is the most common year to find with the odd mid-late 1930's coin around but not in great condition.

    1840's - not many coins in poorer condition but for some reason I saw some in better condition.

    Where can I find mintage figures for each year? I don't have any coin reference books like KM unfortunately.

    I'm interested in learning more about these coins with the view of buying a nice rare example.

    Peace

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinlover101 thank you! It’s been an interesting series to try to understand. Not a lot of info out there.

    Generally speaking, yes, Soles are much like many old South American coins, the “Crown size” is usually much more available (and more popular) than any other denomination. Frequently the smaller they get, the more rare they become. Largely because they got “used up” but also because they got minted in smaller quantities. With Bolivian Sol coins, the 8 soles are by far the most available across the board, but the 2 Sol seems to be the rarest. I have never been able to find mintage figures, so I’m not sure, but I assume they got minted in smaller quantities and were used for a very long time.

    Regarding the 1830 date coins, they are plentiful for all denominations, except for, interestingly, the 8 reales. This might be the only case where the 8 is more rare than any of the other denominations. I assume this is because they shifted focus during that year away from the 8 Sol in order to produce the others. They had a finite amount of time and silver, so they sacrificed one for the others. With the other years it was opposite.

    As far as reference goes…I don’t know of any. At. All. I’ve been told there’s a book in spanish somewhere that was produced a while back that talks about them, but I’ve yet to confirm the existence or even the title of said book. The only two resources I’m aware of are KM and NGC census/price guides…which really didn’t impart much information at all.

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS has a census, but it’s not as good, sadly

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Got this one in a holder, F15, which seems just right to me.

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