The Use Of X-Ray Spectrographic's In Numismatics

OAKSTAR

Do TPG'ers or others in the numismatic community utilize these for attribution?

pmh1nic

I don’t know about attribution other than to verify the content of the coin (percentage of each element).

jmlanzaf

How would that help with attribution other than a wrong planchet error?

OAKSTAR

Okay, maybe attribution is the wrong word. How about verify? Specifically to ID the metal content on counterfeit coins.

asheland

Perhaps with ancients?

jmlanzaf

@OAKSTAR said:
Okay, maybe attribution is the wrong word. How about verify? Specifically to ID the metal content on counterfeit coins.

Yes. People use it. But not routinely. There's limited situations where it would be helpful.

OAKSTAR

@jmlanzaf said:

@OAKSTAR said:
Okay, maybe attribution is the wrong word. How about verify? Specifically to ID the metal content on counterfeit coins.

Yes. They use it.

You think each of the TPG'ers have one?

jmlanzaf

@OAKSTAR said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@OAKSTAR said:
Okay, maybe attribution is the wrong word. How about verify? Specifically to ID the metal content on counterfeit coins.

Yes. They use it.

You think each of the TPG'ers have one?

I don't know. It's not routinely used because it usually isn't necessary or helpful.

Sapyx

Yes, they do use it, routinely.

From the PCGS Grading Room: How X-Ray Technology Helps Authenticate Coins

Mr Lindy

This is a 20k piece of tech. Why wouldn't they/anyone deploy it ? Seriously ! ??? Most mom and pops dealers own it to counter outlandish Chinese manufactured fraud. A 20k buy in avoids hundreds of thousands in fraud. Two or three losses paid for it. Counterfeits are rampant. Are coin collectors paying attention to all the Chinese counterfeits flooding USA IN 2015-2013 ??? Die struck, goofy metal poo...

OAKSTAR

@Sapyx said:
Yes, they do use it, routinely.

From the PCGS Grading Room: How X-Ray Technology Helps Authenticate Coins

Thanks for that! 👍🏻

Onastone

Lead apron sold separately.

jmlanzaf

@Mr Lindy said:
This is a 20k piece of tech. Why wouldn't they/anyone deploy it ? Seriously ! ??? Most mom and pops dealers own it to counter outlandish Chinese manufactured fraud. A 20k buy in avoids hundreds of thousands in fraud. Two or three losses paid for it. Counterfeits are rampant. Are coin collectors paying attention to all the Chinese counterfeits flooding USA IN 2015-2013 ??? Die struck, goofy metal poo...

It doesn't help with counterfeits made in silver, that's why. And most pot metal counterfeits can be identified without it. I don't imagine it gets used that often, relative to the number of coins that come through. It simply isn't necessary.

OAKSTAR

@jmcu12

yosclimber

High power XRF has been used by numismatists to detect Sheffield Plate counterfeits of Pillar dollars.
Here is a related thread on a Sheffield Plate counterfeit Morgan dollar:
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=256324

Sapyx

@jmlanzaf said:

@Mr Lindy said:
This is a 20k piece of tech. Why wouldn't they/anyone deploy it ? Seriously ! ??? Most mom and pops dealers own it to counter outlandish Chinese manufactured fraud. A 20k buy in avoids hundreds of thousands in fraud. Two or three losses paid for it. Counterfeits are rampant. Are coin collectors paying attention to all the Chinese counterfeits flooding USA IN 2015-2013 ??? Die struck, goofy metal poo...

It doesn't help with counterfeits made in silver, that's why. And most pot metal counterfeits can be identified without it. I don't imagine it gets used that often, relative to the number of coins that come through. It simply isn't necessary.

It can help with counterfeits made from precious metals, by looking at the trace non-precious elements it contains and comparing that "fingerprint" to genuine coins. It's not foolproof, but it sometimes helps. Which makes it "worthwhile" for routine use in a coin authentication lab, provided testing a coin does not take up too much time. Passing the XRF test is not a 100% assurance of authenticity, but failing the XRF test is 100% proof of fakeness.

Example: Modern 22k gold is often alloyed with trace amounts of titanium, to increase its durability for jewellery-making - something that didn't happen prior to the late 20th century. Titanium does not occur naturally in gold at measurable levels. The levels of titanium added are small (typically less than 0.5%), but still high enough to readily detect with an XRF. Scanning a gold coin and detecting titanium in it can therefore "prove" an allegedly old coin was made using a piece of modern gold alloy, and is therefore fake.

Sure, counterfeiters can foil this by melting down actual old coins to use as their raw material, to make sure the trace element levels are identical. But most don't bother - at least, not until XRF becomes ubiquitous in the street markets.

jmlanzaf

@Sapyx said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Mr Lindy said:
This is a 20k piece of tech. Why wouldn't they/anyone deploy it ? Seriously ! ??? Most mom and pops dealers own it to counter outlandish Chinese manufactured fraud. A 20k buy in avoids hundreds of thousands in fraud. Two or three losses paid for it. Counterfeits are rampant. Are coin collectors paying attention to all the Chinese counterfeits flooding USA IN 2015-2013 ??? Die struck, goofy metal poo...

It doesn't help with counterfeits made in silver, that's why. And most pot metal counterfeits can be identified without it. I don't imagine it gets used that often, relative to the number of coins that come through. It simply isn't necessary.

It can help with counterfeits made from precious metals, by looking at the trace non-precious elements it contains and comparing that "fingerprint" to genuine coins. It's not foolproof, but it sometimes helps. Which makes it "worthwhile" for routine use in a coin authentication lab, provided testing a coin does not take up too much time. Passing the XRF test is not a 100% assurance of authenticity, but failing the XRF test is 100% proof of fakeness.

Example: Modern 22k gold is often alloyed with trace amounts of titanium, to increase its durability for jewellery-making - something that didn't happen prior to the late 20th century. Titanium does not occur naturally in gold at measurable levels. The levels of titanium added are small (typically less than 0.5%), but still high enough to readily detect with an XRF. Scanning a gold coin and detecting titanium in it can therefore "prove" an allegedly old coin was made using a piece of modern gold alloy, and is therefore fake.

Sure, counterfeiters can foil this by melting down actual old coins to use as their raw material, to make sure the trace element levels are identical. But most don't bother - at least, not until XRF becomes ubiquitous in the street markets.

There definitely are uses. And I'm sure it gets used. But the trace metals in most classic coins aren't consistent unless the source was the same. Generally, they refined everything.

And, at the risk of repeating myself, most counterfeits can be identified by the design elements without requiring a trace metal analysis.

PerryHall

I read some time ago that counterfeiters who make high quality ancient counterfeit coins will use damaged low-value ancient silver bowels and utensils from the same time period and local as the coins to be counterfeited as a source for the silver to make their counterfeit coins in an effort to fool the x-ray spectrographic analysis used by authenticators.