My first CACG coin
ElmerFusterpuck
Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭✭✭
Managed to get this very tough date, a 1917-S obverse mintmark from Liz Coggan (another great dealer!) from Long Beach the past week. She sent me an email with images of this coin, which fit the look I was looking for. So this completes my set (1916-33) of the early Walkers in circulated grades! Well, almost. It doesn't complete my PCGS registry set. Either way, I'm not cracking out this coin just to do that. In my mind, the set is complete but I know I'll probably look for a PCGS graded one too.
The CACG holder seems to be pretty sturdy and feels as thick as an old NGC fattie, and the plastic is super clear so it's easy to image to coin. This one is graded VF-35.
10-4,
Erik
My registry sets
35
Comments
The VF35 grade- especially on the obverse- seems somewhat agressive to me.
peacockcoins
Nice looking original coin, and very tough in the mid-grade range. And Liz is first class.
But I have to agree with @braddick, the grade seems optimistic from the images.
a lot of my walkers just got upgraded to VF35 in my own mental grading system!
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Nice looking coin but more towards a VF25?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Lets see the slab shot, congrats on the first CACG slab.
@braddick said: The VF35 grade- especially on the obverse- seems somewhat agressive to me.
Let the games begin!!!!
Crack-out, submit to PCGS and then to CAC or CMQ for some good thread fodder. Man, this place is gonna get lively during the next year.......................
Will cac stickering evaluate cac graded coins? It’d be interesting to see if they would green bean this coin.
If they declined to sticker, would a cac grading guarantee kick in?
Just for some perspective, cac dropped the ball on grading this coin too:
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1433580/1995-W-1-Silver-Eagle-CACG-Proof-70-DCAM
Problems on both sides of this one. I’m beginning to wonder if they’ve already loosened their “grading standards” and succumb to gradeflation at approximately the 1 month point of the company?
FYI: It doesn't need to be stickered with a cac sticker, its already in a cac holder. Any coin that is in a ngc or pcgs holder with a cac sticker will crossover to a cac holder.
CAC will not review CACG holdered coins, period.
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No guarantee means.....
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How do you know that CAC "dropped the ball", have you seen the coin in hand? I see some dust and specks that could easily be on the outside of the holder or what could also be reflection or lighting artifacts.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Here are the slab shots:
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I think the CACG "guarantee" can be found here.
Select the "grading policy" option.
Congrats on completing the set....A VERY difficult and impressive achievement.
I would expect a 35 to have a little more meat on the bone but it's still a nice coin and a TOUGH date.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Don’t need to see this one in hand. Just the easy pickin naked eye flaws are the break in frost speck on the bottom of the sun, and on the reverse the strike thru area on the “F” in of, plus the ~5 specks on the shield and speck under the first “U” in Pluribus on the eagle wing.
This is a 69.
I guess to be fair, they’ve basically never graded a modern coin, and so they’ve gotta learn somehow.
The flawless rims and mark-free surfaces are exceptional and probably contributed to the grade. This is a factor that should be considered when grading circulated coins. I like the coin!
I expect the "bean" is already incorporated into the grade. For them that would be an A or B coin at vf35. They aren't going to include C coins. Instead of a C coin at vf35, it would be an A or B coin at vf30. IMO vf35 is generous from the pics.
This is as close as I can come right now.
So this completes my set (1916-33) of the early Walkers in circulated grades! Well, almost. It doesn't complete my PCGS registry set. Either way, I'm not cracking out this coin just to do that. In my mind, the set is complete but I know I'll probably look for a PCGS graded one too.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM! It's so tempting to send coins to CACG for upgrading. For example a BN CAC penny that should be a RB. Saves the cost of resubmitting to PCGS and then to CAC; but, one still doesn't have the needed coin for the PCGS Registry set.
I agree this doesn't look like a 35 at all. Is it me or is there a rim issue over the "I" on the obv?
I agree with those who are saying that CACG was generous with the assigned grade. That's why we need a company CMQ to verify that the assigned grade is accurate. It's a very nice coin in any event and the obverse mintmark is very cool.
The mintmark was punched into the die as a separate operation and since the reverse die could be used in subsequent years, it did save some effort for the mint by putting the mintmark on the reverse die.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PCGS photograde. I don't think it is so obvious, based on photos, that this coin wouldn't cross. The lighting may well be decreasing the contrast and hiding the detail. It's hard to grade from photos.
I agree the photos make it look a little less detailed than a 35. But I'm not convinced that it looks that way in hand. Only the OP knows for sure.
It’s curious that their photograde example is so weak. Every PCGS VF 35 I’ve ever seen has a no question completely full bust line, and much stronger reverse feather details.
@PerryHall said: I agree with those who are saying that CACG was generous with the assigned grade. That's why we need a company CMQ to verify that the assigned grade is accurate.
And, thus, the absurdity of all this stickering is explained. There is a small part of me that sees its "worth" but a bigger part sees it driving collectors away.
I was being facetious and I agree with you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They got the grade right and if anything you can be sure that cac is walking the tightrope between accurate grading but not unreasonable tightness at this early part of their process. If the coin were in an Anacs or Icg slab you can be sure that most coin connoisseurs would say that it was a pattern of either looseness or arbitrary use of the grading standards.
This looks like a flat spot to me.
Ironically, I bought a raw 20D walker from Liz when she was still at JJ Teaparty, listed as a F15, that had similar details as the PCGS photograde example shown above. When I upgraded it I was able to sell it for VF 20 Bid, to a dealer who then sold it as a Choice VF. But this was a LONG time ago.
The eye appeal on BAJJERFAN's VF30 is tremendous.
It's a circulated coin. Hard to expect it to be flawless. I don't see enough flatness to even worry about.
First of all, congratulations on a very nice, difficult to obtain coin. I mean no disrespect that from a technical grading standpoint, I cannot agree with the grade and the image in the ANA Grading Standards book backs me up. However, I do realize that each tpg has their own standards which are different from ANA's standards. I believe the grade assigned to this coin is an example of Market Grading which takes into account the value of the coin. I wonder if they would have assigned the same grade if the coin were much more common.
Since it's CACG, we should expect it to be above average. Anything that disturbs the symmetry of the coin would make it average at best IMO.
Yep, but I don't see the flaw that would do that. YMMV.
If you call JA he would give you his opinion about why a coin did or did not get the bean. Wonder if he'll do the same for grades. Frankly, I wish all TPGs would be willing to back up their grades in this manner.
Congrats to the OP on a tough circulated coin that's nice. He usually takes pretty good pics so I'll assume his accurately reflect the coin. JA and folks have seen the coin raw and rendered their opinion.
I agree it "seems" aggressive, to me it looks 25, I will let benefit of doubt prevail until the OP perhaps posts his pictures or we know better what this one looks in hand like.
The OP has posted his pics.
Wow you must be the most amazing grader in the history of graders, you don't even need to see the coin in hand to know everything about it. Even long-time numismatists and former graders like Mark Feld often acknowledge just how difficult it is to accurately grade proofs from photos, hats off to you sir that is some serious skill you have.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I thought you couldn't compare a 16-20 WLH grading standards to the later 21-47 years. Looks original, color is very good, pretty mark-free for such a circulated coin, and rims are in good shape. I think it has very nice eye appeal, I like it and wouldn't be disappointed in grade. Maybe it should have been given a VF30, but some of the comments above appear to think its way over-graded. I don't think so, JMHO. I think it is slightly nicer then the PCGS VF30 above, which is graded appropriately. Looks like more separation in hair, the lower leaves of the bouquet flowers, and a strong IN GOD WE TRUST motto.
missed that, in hand it must look better, pretty clean as other mentioned.
What's a mere 10 points these days anyhow right?
I appreciate the kind words because I do know my stuff on specific coin series, and can grade better than pcgs/NGC most of the time. I’ve looked at tens of thousands of coins in photos and pairing that information to in hand viewing of coins makes it easier to identify scratches on the coin and/or holder, and flaws hidden with lighting and shadows. I haven’t seen enough cac graded coins yet to get a feel on how they grade or what grading method they use, but it’s just gonna take time to learn their routine. I mean if they’re gonna grade that 95-w a 70, I can put together a pile of nicer pcgs 69s and submit to cac for automatic upgrades.
In hand this coin is very clean (not cleaned!) and very attractive. I've added a couple of pics taken with my phone which show the coin in a different light. In hand, I wonder about the strike on this coin. It does say that this date is usually well struck. I have a nice 1916-S in XF-45 with a CAC sticker. Of course there are more details but I can tell the thumb and that general area were not well struck. I do appreciate all the input and discussion, it's what the hobby (and holders) are all about!
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Don’t see it above VF25 - hope you did not pay too much for it. Don’t like the black area on mm - wb no go for me. Yuck.
Sheesh, tough crowd in here. Congrats on completing the early walker set @ElmerFusterpuck —nice accomplishment.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Somebody showed me pics of this before I saw it here and I called it a 20. Probably harsh but 35 is too high IMHO. My comment was that I would want "to see more boob in a 35."
Graders aren't infallible.
Congrats on finishing the set though, VF walkers in early dates get tough!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
There you have it, @coinbuf. Since, according to him, he can grade better than PCGS/NGC “most of the time”, if he disagrees with them (or, no doubt, CAC), they’re wrong. It’s as simple as that.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I tend to place a lot of emphasis on the collar and I've seen many 35s that have more meat in the collar than this one has.
Yes, unfortunately some coins have to go in many times before the grading companies get it right, but they will come around.
I like this coin a lot. Tough coin to find nice. Looks like a 30 to me and your second set of pictures is better than your first, but it doesn’t really matter. If CACG, Liz and you all reviewed the coin the coin in hand and think it’s 35, then it’s 35.
Contrary to @Cougar1978 i like the darkness around the mintmark which makes it stand out.
Congrats on the purchase!
I am simply awestruck.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.