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Is Mark Messier better than Bobby Orr because Messier has 6 rings and Orr only 2?

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭

    Basketball is the only major sport where a single player can take over a game where rings should probably matter. NHL goalie would be 2nd but they cant go out and score. Baseball pitchers play 20% of the time at best, football the best QB would be bad on a bad team.

    Forwards and defensemen shouldnt be compared to each other in hockey though.

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    DarinDarin Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Discuss

    Am I going to have to flag you for taunting?🤨
    Goldy had been doing so well not talking about Orr since his not so anonymous return.

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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Darin said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Discuss

    Am I going to have to flag you for taunting?🤨
    Goldy had been doing so well not talking about Orr since his not so anonymous return.

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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nope

    Not much to discuss since I think most of us realize that rings is not a fair way to judge a player

    Don't get me wrong but for me personally I do give a player credit for performing well in playoffs and championship games though

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    dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:
    ...football the best QB would be bad on a bad team.

    Correction, the best QB would have bad stats on a bad team, he would, however, still be a great QB.

    Seems a trivial point but it is in missing this obvious fact that so many QB evaluations go so far off the rails.

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
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    doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 23,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @Darin said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Discuss

    Am I going to have to flag you for taunting?🤨
    Goldy had been doing so well not talking about Orr since his not so anonymous return.

  • Options
    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @Darin said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Discuss

    Am I going to have to flag you for taunting?🤨
    Goldy had been doing so well not talking about Orr since his not so anonymous return.

    ...
    Take it easy, Paulie. It's just a little cartoon referee making the signal for a taunting penalty. Nothing personal...

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    @thisistheshow said:

    @Darin said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Discuss

    Am I going to have to flag you for taunting?🤨
    Goldy had been doing so well not talking about Orr since his not so anonymous return.

    Gotta have fun in life. No harm there.

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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @Darin said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Discuss

    Am I going to have to flag you for taunting?🤨
    Goldy had been doing so well not talking about Orr since his not so anonymous return.

    Gotta have fun in life. No harm there.

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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In all seriousness, the real question is how would Orr perform in different eras? Would his advantages be mitigated?

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    @thisistheshow said:
    In all seriousness, the real question is how would Orr perform in different eras? Would his advantages be mitigated?

    Good question. I'm taking a step back from the era adjusments. It is just too wild of a scale to pin point how much. Then it comes off as dissing older players which I would never want to do as I have great respect for all of them.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2023 7:55PM

    @thisistheshow said:
    In all seriousness, the real question is how would Orr perform in different eras? Would his advantages be mitigated?

    Hed have almost certainly had more assists and points given that the NHL has eliminated two line passes, goalies cant play the puck in the corner, the crease is smaller, pads are smaller for goalies etc.

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    pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 494 ✭✭✭

    No

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @thisistheshow said:
    In all seriousness, the real question is how would Orr perform in different eras? Would his advantages be mitigated?

    Hed have almost certainly had more assists and points given that the NHL has eliminated two line passes, goalies cant play the puck in the corner, the crease is smaller, pads are smaller for goalies etc.

    Goalies didn't play the puck in the corner in Orr's era anyway. Pads are smaller now but much lighter and goalies themselves are much larger.

    There's no way Orr is hitting 130+ points in today's NHL. Just isn't happening. But it certainly could have in 1983. But he'd have to do it without fattening up on the 1975 Capitals.

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^Doesn't everyone fatten up on the 1975 Capitals? Or the 2023 Anaheim Ducks?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have to go with Bobby Orr over Messier. Both are legendary players but Orr to me was better.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2023 9:31AM

    I would rather have Orr play with Gretzky on my team than Messier and Wayne.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    oh no.

    Not Bobby Orr...

    I think some of us may have PTSD pertaining to Bobby Orr.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    oh no.

    Not Bobby Orr...

    I think some of us may have PTSD pertaining to Bobby Orr.

    Not me I was not born then and never saw him play. But still chose Orr over Messier. If you asked over Gretzky or Lemieux I would not chose Orr over them.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    tommyrusty7tommyrusty7 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭✭

    Nobody that saw Orr play and completely control the game will vote for anybody but him. I personally saw a lot of his games and there is no question in my mind.

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    ^Doesn't everyone fatten up on the 1975 Capitals? Or the 2023 Anaheim Ducks?

    Sure but the 1975 Capitals are the worst team ever. Way worse than the Ducks or any other team of the last 40 years.

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tommyrusty7 said:
    Nobody that saw Orr play and completely control the game will vote for anybody but him. I personally saw a lot of his games and there is no question in my mind.

    Lemieux could take over games too.

    These are the two players who, to me, seemed like they could do what they wanted on the ice.

    I never saw Gordie Howe, but he was probably similar.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @thisistheshow said:
    In all seriousness, the real question is how would Orr perform in different eras? Would his advantages be mitigated?

    Hed have almost certainly had more assists and points given that the NHL has eliminated two line passes, goalies cant play the puck in the corner, the crease is smaller, pads are smaller for goalies etc.

    Goalies didn't play the puck in the corner in Orr's era anyway. Pads are smaller now but much lighter and goalies themselves are much larger.

    There's no way Orr is hitting 130+ points in today's NHL. Just isn't happening. But it certainly could have in 1983. But he'd have to do it without fattening up on the 1975 Capitals.

    Orr only had 130+ a year twice in a much more physical time frame. Its not out of the question he could have done that today with a ton of assists in the more offensive style league with the modern training. Karlsson put up over 100 points playing D last year

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    Orr only had 130+ a year twice in a much more physical time frame. Its not out of the question he could have done that today with a ton of assists in the more offensive style league with the modern training. Karlsson put up over 100 points playing D last year

    More physical but worse defensively. Teams gave up 16 more goals in 2 fewer games in 1975 vs 2023. In 2023, 2 teams averaged 4 GAA. In 1975, in a league half the size, there were four with a 5th at 3.95, with the worst at over 5.5.

    Orr was an incredible player and I'd take him every day over Messier. But the league today is a lot better, a lot deeper, and scoring is harder. I just can't see him scoring 30% more points than any defenseman in 35+ years and more points than any forward except one since 1996.

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    georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2023 10:01AM

    Over the course of time, I wouldn't necessarily say the game is either more nor less physical. It is definitely less helter skelter. I say this having seen, on average, about 80 games per year since 1971.

    There are plenty of full games from the 50s and 60s on YouTube.
    One of the great impacts of the Summit Series was the accelerated implementation of systems which dramatically changed how the puck was brought up the ice.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    Orr only had 130+ a year twice in a much more physical time frame. Its not out of the question he could have done that today with a ton of assists in the more offensive style league with the modern training. Karlsson put up over 100 points playing D last year

    More physical but worse defensively. Teams gave up 16 more goals in 2 fewer games in 1975 vs 2023. In 2023, 2 teams averaged 4 GAA. In 1975, in a league half the size, there were four with a 5th at 3.95, with the worst at over 5.5.

    Orr was an incredible player and I'd take him every day over Messier. But the league today is a lot better, a lot deeper, and scoring is harder. I just can't see him scoring 30% more points than any defenseman in 35+ years and more points than any forward except one since 1996.

    The best players from any generation would still be the best players if they grew up with the modern training and nutrition. I dont think defense men and forwards should be compared anyways its just such a different role.

    I dont think Orr would do it every year, but I could see him racking up several 100 point seasons and playing past the age of 30 in todays game. If nothing else better surgeries today would have given him a chance of playing longer and the less violent game probably would have prevented at least some of the injuries

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think it's far fetched to imagine that Orr could score 130 points in today's game.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    The best players from any generation would still be the best players if they grew up with the modern training and nutrition. I dont think defense men and forwards should be compared anyways its just such a different role.

    I don't 100% agree the best would always be the best but I do agree when it comes to Orr. I have no doubt he would be outstanding today.

    I dont think Orr would do it every year, but I could see him racking up several 100 point seasons and playing past the age of 30 in todays game. If nothing else better surgeries today would have given him a chance of playing longer and the less violent game probably would have prevented at least some of the injuries

    No question he makes it past 30 because of the better healthcare.

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