New sticker ALERT!!!! CMQ sticker
COINS MAKE CENTS
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Just saw info on this. I guess it's the new CAC or trying to be.
It's something Stacks Bowers is doing.....
Eventually we won't beable to see the coin anymore
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Comments
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peacockcoins
David Hall
https://cmq.stacksbowers.com/
While highly respected, it is simply another man’s opinion. Everyone has one. The only opinion that truly matters is that of the person putting out money for the coin.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Sure. But that's true of slabs as well. But the more respected opinions I have, the more risk I'm willing to take on a coin I haven't seen in hand.
Like different geological ages I see the sticker thing as a fad in the long term. How long it will go on who knows. Perhaps it will be replaced by a self grading AI holder.
What are they going to think of next a service like the sticker guy for one’s choice of a home, car, boat, or fiancée? Money is tight, people need to learn how to make their own decisions and limit of risk.
I would go broke paying a sticker guy bless my inventory investment or paying extra for his blessed stuff.
I don’t look at CAC as a fad, really. A lot of what I buy is based off of photos, since I am unable to travel and see the coin ‘in hand.’ The sticker provides some level of comfort that at least someone else concurs that the grade showing is accurate, in their eyes and not based only on photos.
One example of this happened recently. I inquired about a non-CAC coin and ask why they thought it didn’t sticker. The opinion was that it could have went either way. My next question was would it have stickered in the next lower grade. Answer-“Yes”
So my conclusion was that it was a good chance it was over graded by one level to start with and I passed on it. And this one level was substantial, being a five figure amount. So without CAC existing, I may have bought the coin and paid the higher level amount for a lower level coin. And then eventually when the coin was sold, anyone actually looking at it ‘in hand’ would also realize the coin wasn’t good for the grade showing, at which point I would be the one taking it on the chin!
This is how I use CAC even though I know it’s controversial and some think it’s basically worthless, I just can’t agree.
JMHO
Totally agree. People who think it is worthless are just being difficult. It's no different than getting a second medical opinion or getting a second quote on a home project. More information is always better and you are free to do with it what you will.
I understand what you’re saying and my opinion is strictly based on me being a collector.
A dealer might have different concerns or reasons that CAC doesn’t work for them, with cost being one of them.
I would wager a vast majority of the anti-cac crowd is not spending 5 figures plus on coins from pictures routinely or I have a hunch they'd probably welcome that second opinion with open arms.
"Collect the Stickers, Not the Coin"
I'm not a fan of CAC. There's plenty of garbage with stickers. Specialized collectors usually don't seek someone else's opinion to know whether or not they like a coin, the price doesn't matter.
I'm not a huge fan of TPG's either. I used to have my seated quarter collection in a Dansco but life's circumstances are such that I want my kids to be able to easily sell the collection.
CAC adds market value no doubt, just like slabbing does. From that perspective I get it and people are free to collect in whatever way makes them happy.
I would consider myself a specialized collector and I don’t need a sticker or even a slab to determine whether I like a coin or not. But after I decide that I like a coin, I do welcome any help tying down the grade, and I don’t believe I’m the only one.
If you don’t believe me, do a search on all the GTGs on here and you will find grade estimates varying 5 levels or more.
It is really hard, at least for me, to look at a picture and come up with the exact grade every time.
Edited to add: And I would venture to guess that price always matters, to the vast majority. Most people, no matter how wealthy, don’t just throw money in the wind. After all, how do you think they got wealthy in the first place, not by wasting what they have!
That's true on GTG threads but that includes a lot of responses from people who don't necessarily specialize in whatever series is being presented. I don't know much about grading moderns and guessed badly on a GTG thread.
If GTG's were limited to people who specialize in the series, there would be a much tighter range. TPG's and stickers are less reliable than a series expert in my opinion. I have a couple of GTG threads in my series where a resubmission changed the grade to what it should have been to start with, which added literally thousands of dollars to the value of the coins. It was wasted grading fees, but it's part of the game so I accept it to get to where I need to be. I don't want to introduce another layer of games (stickers) to the process.
How much more will a CAC/CMQ dual sticker coin sell for at auction?
Will CDN have pricing for dual stickered coins?
Tune in tomorrow, same bat time same bat channel
Dang. You are on to something. Package it with an NFC chip and a small wireless charger. Every time you power it up, it charges your credit card the regrading fee, downloads the latest grading model, regrades the coin, and displays the new grade on an eInk display.
We can replace the OCD refresh button mashing by placing and removing the holder on the grading station. It never has to leave your hands.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Virtual card collecting is a thing. So, let's just skip all that and collect virtual coins.
You talk as if either you don’t know what the word “fad” means or you don’t know how long CAC has been around.
And you certainly wouldn’t go broke if you knew which coins to submit to CAC and you had such coins to submit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Even if they specialized, they can be way off based on a photo. Ira Stein, who we recently mourned, have a brilliant presentation with photos of an XF large cent. He could make it look anything from F/VF to UNC just by changing the lighting type and the angles.
It's more than that. What gives CAC value is not merely the respect people have for JA, but the money he puts behind his opinions with his bids. Anyone else who is willing and able to do that will have something.
Otherwise, just a bunch of "respected" opinions with nothing behind them doesn't really add value to what has already been created with the slab. At least not to me.
Lots of people already have stickers. Some of them are very respected. Do they make guaranteed markets in their stickered coins? If so, I certainly don't hear about them like I do CAC.
Do their stickers actually add any value? Or are we just talking about having "fun" with stickers, like with labels and mystery slabs in sealed boxes, since you also advocate taking risk on a coin you can't see even when in hand?
These threads like fans debating which formation, QB, RB to start etc. It appears some of the posters here have a big investment in the sticker game. I have no investment in it at this time plus more diversified vs just US Classic coins. It wb interesting to see how the CDN will price the CACG slabs. The recent column in the recent Qtrly CAC market review was superb and answered my questions (CACG). I keep it w the CPG Mkt review in case anything walks up and a deal might be there.
I take it you haven't seen JAs bids. He is not the high bid in many segments and his bids are strictly wholesale. Yes, CAC makes market in its coins but they are not driving retail prices.
Join the exchange for a few months and you'll see what I mean.
Being the high bid is not a prerequisite. Just guaranteeing to have a bid is.
A sticker without a bid is worthless. And sure, a ridiculously low bid is as well.
JA developed a reputation for being fair and reputable. That, and his eye, created the value and premium that CAC enjoys today.
It's not impossible to replicate, but requires a bankroll few have, and even fewer are willing to put at risk. That's why we don't talk about other stickers in the same breath as CAC.
Is there any indication this is going to be any different, between Stack's and Hall? They say they are going to be active market makers, and they certainly have the credibility and capital to be competition to CAC. I guess if CAC can compete with NGC and PCGS, there is no reason Stack's and Hall can't compete with them.
Retracted. Edited post made my point moot.
Thinking about possible submission strategies and arbitrage opportunities. Not sure if it’s going to be a bonanza, a nightmare or both. And explaining it to my customers is not going to be easy.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Being the high bid is absolutely a prerequisite of you are suggesting that the bid is adding value. The value comes from the sticker. Period.
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Doesn't the presumably superior quality of the coins also add value?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sorry. Yes. I should have phrased it that way. But it's the quality as denoted (hopefully) by the sticker. Even JA has said that he didn't expect the retail premium that he's seeing.
If you say so. To me, it's the act of putting one's money behind the sticker. Doesn't always have to be the high bid. Just has to be competitive, and there. It looks like that is exactly what Stack's and Hall are trying to do -- replicate with JA did. Since JA seems to be moving into the grading space, I wish CMQ nothing but the best.
Correct. But, presumably, that will always be there anyway, with or without a sticker.
I think the reason CAC took off, while several imitators didn't, is because the CAC sticker is more than a marketing ploy. It's an indication that JA and his team not only like the coin, but are willing to back that opinion up with a competitive bid.
Now and in the future. THAT gives the sticker value above and beyond the value of the coin. As indicated, not by me, but by the market, and over time now.
They often AREN'T competitive and JA admits that.
You keep repeating this. CAC doesn't even claim it. Look at their 1st page:
https://www.cacgrading.com/
You can't even easily find ANY reference to bids on their site.
Here's what they say about value:
"Why do CAC coins bring a premium?
Quality coins will always bring a premium. CAC makes it easy to identify quality coins.
It is a well-documented fact that CAC-stickered coins command a premium in the rare coin market. Why, one may ask? The answer is simple. Quality alone determines the value of a rare coin, and the CAC sticker provides an easy way to identify a premium coin for the grade."
You don't even know that they will be bidding in the future.
No, no one knows anything about the future. I'm still not sure why you are arguing. CAC made its reputation through JA and his willingness to back up his opinion with cash.
If he is deemphasizing that now that his attention is focused on his new project, so what? I'm not wrong about why CAC what it is today.
If he and Hall now want to switch hats, great. What point are you making, anyway? That all stickers are created equal, and you're always happy to have another opinion on your slab? Again, great. I respectfully disagree. Now, please tell me again how people were willing to pay premiums for sealed VBs because they were chasing limited edition labels, not lottery tickets.
This should probably merge with https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1095329/stack-s-bowers-galleries-partners-with-david-hall-to-launch-collectible-market-qualified-cmq/p2
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