Another 1909-S Lincoln cent Counterfeit - 9/4/23 - Gone now
IkesT
Posts: 3,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
Like the other recently discussed example, this 1909-S counterfeit has mushy details, a weakly-struck reverse, and the design of the date & mint mark does not match the genuine 1909-S cent.
Edit: Removed by eBay - thank you for reporting!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115907238892
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But what does Harsche's book say about it?
When Comic Sans font is used on the date it's a red flag that the coin is probably a fake.
peacockcoins
I'll read it tomorrow in the harsche light of day...
He has another listed you may want to check to the book...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115907169751?hash=item1afc9b0dd7:g:spoAAOSw-W1k9jOe
And a '14-D: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115907193113?hash=item1afc9b6919:g:~IoAAOSwIHlk9jxE
Thank you!
PCGS probably consulted with Harsche's reference book regarding 1909-S V.D.B. varieties. Was anyone else back in the day documenting what they were seeing with regards to 1909-S Lincoln cents both with and without V.D.B. to try and ascertain genuine pieces from fakes? I challenge anyone here to prove that Harsche was not the first, or at least among the first, to document what he was seeing with 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. mintmark positions. The man was a pioneer in detecting altered and counterfeit coins and deserves way more respect than he's getting here.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
No disrespect to Mr. Harsche or his research - just a few good-natured puns based on his name.
When a word has been repeated so many times , as was the case on certain past threads, it can take on an emergent comedic property that it would not otherwise have. That is what happened in this case, IMO, although YMMV.
Did that help PCGS verify the certified fake as indeed fake as a result?
The counterfeit 1909-S cents have been removed by eBay, but the 1914-d listing is still active.
@burfle23 - Would you mind elaborating on the 1914-D, as perhaps others have been more reluctant to report this one. From what I can see, there is some general mushiness in the details, with particular weakness on the reverse (in "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA", for example), and the toning looks a bit off.
One of the potential giveaways for a counterfeit is when they have missing detail but are not worn - and in some cases, someone has gone further and attempted to make them look circulated to hide this fact. It looks to me like this may be the case with the 1914-D; however, it is not as obvious as the OP example, and the blurriness of the photos also makes it hard to tell.
The 2 posted '09-S listings were removed- I was posting as @IkesT was as well...
I made a comp image of the '14-D to the current known mm positions (no offense to Harsche intended):
@burfle23 - That's terrific - thank you!
When you have them all laid out like that, it's clear that the counterfeit mint mark doesn't match any of them.
I made a little addition to your fantastic image and extended the straight line of the "D" mint mark up through the date. The counterfeit is the only one where the straight line intersects the left side of the digit "9".
.
14-D certainly looks off to me. Mushy without being worn.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
I agree, but am working on another post right now with a major caveat - which is that the eBay photo is so blurry, I'm not sure I'm confident about the comparison I just made above...
I'm going to leave my previous image post up, because I think it shows the pitfalls of working with a blurry image.
Doing the comparison again zoomed in as much as possible in my photo editing program, the results between the "review example" and the closest match are a lot closer. You have to be so careful what comparisons you make with a blurry/low res image - I'm not sure now that the eBay photo is good enough to draw a conclusion.
Most of the coins offered by this particular seller are not counterfeits, but he does have a lot of blurry images. You can see how blurry images can be used to someone's advantage and prevent counterfeits from being confirmed and reported, if that is their intention.
Gif comparison of the dates & mint marks:
Static overlay with transparent image:
@mr1931S "PCGS probably consulted with Harsche's reference book regarding 1909-S V.D.B. varieties."
Forget the book this time. Yucky photos are not at all helpful. Immediate turn-off for me and I will simply move on in ebay if in the market there for these dates. To m> @burfle23 said:
No. They had their own photographs and numbering system for 1909-S V.D.B. varieties by the time my fake was wrongly determined to be authentic by them. The fourth variety of 1909-S V.D.B. was identified later, after Harsche's 6th and final edition of his booklet, by who knows. Could have been PCGS, I suppose. ANACS is more likely to have discovered the fourth variety, the one that Harsche doesn't list because Harsche never had the opportunity to examine one (it's the scarcest S V.D.B. with the S high and far left, 's' tilting right a good deal). Probably just a few thousand of S.V.D.'s like these were made by the SF mint. I think what threw PCGS off on my piece was that this particular counterfeit was made by using a genuine 1909-S coin, wrong 's' mintmark position with a wrong reverse, but a genuine 1909-S nonetheless. I considered that the piece was an old school counterfeit made when 1909-S without V.D.B. was relatively inexpensive compared to today's prices. Harsche even discusses how, back in the day, counterfeit S-V.D.B.'s were made by adding a V.D.B. to a 1909-S without V.D.B. using "asphalt paint" to create the letters and dots and concentrated nitric acid to accomplish the etch.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Where's your evidence that they didn't mrlaughsalot? Harsche had written and published the last edition of his counterfeit detection guide several years before PCGS was even a twinkle in its daddy's eye.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S "I considered that the piece was an old school counterfeit made when 1909-S without V.D.B. was relatively inexpensive compared to today's prices. Harsche even discusses how, back in the day, counterfeit S-V.D.B.'s were made by adding a V.D.B. to a 1909-S without V.D.B. using "asphalt paint" to create the letters and dots and concentrated nitric acid to accomplish the etch."
In another thread you said. "Careful inspection of the area around the VDB letters reveals NO DISTURBANCE to the woodgrain. The 'V' itself even has a streak of this woodgrain that flows into the area surrounding without disturbance. Acid etching the letters and dots of V.D.B. would be virtually impossible to pull off without disturbing the coins surface surrounding the letters and dots. I don't think the V.D.B. on my piece was acid-etched. The V.D.B. was struck onto the coin by the San Francisco mint, I have concluded."
You keep changing your story, is this your final answer?
@mr1931S "Where's your evidence that they didn't mrlaughsalot?"
This is just another product of your over active imagination. When trolls come here with wild claims from an over active imagination we tell them they need to back up their claims with evidence, it's not up to us to provide evidence how your wild theory might be true. This is just like your other wild theory "maybe a bored mint worker decided to try his hand at modifying the V.D.B. and in doing so put HIS signature on a few SVDB's that made it into the channels of commerce." that was proven wrong by the members here and PCGS. It's not up to us to prove you wrong, it's up to you to provide proof you are right.
Your numismatic knowledge might partially fill a thimble provided it's a miniature one from a Monopoly game.
This was a good thread until you showed up.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
In another thread you said. "Careful inspection of the area around the VDB letters reveals NO DISTURBANCE to the woodgrain. The 'V' itself even has a streak of this woodgrain that flows into the area surrounding without disturbance. Acid etching the letters and dots of V.D.B. would be virtually impossible to pull off without disturbing the coins surface surrounding the letters and dots. I don't think the V.D.B. on my piece was acid-etched. The V.D.B. was struck onto the coin by the San Francisco mint, I have concluded."
You keep changing your story, is this your final answer?
This counterfeit was extremely well-executed. I wish I still had it in my possession but I had to give it up to get an authentic one. Recently I saw another very well-executed counterfeit S-V.D.B., this one with an acid-etched 's'. Not slabbed by any TPG. Dealer in a shop showed it to me. Wasn't for sale.'s' serifs were there, 's' was seen in proper position. V.D.B. was wrong, however. Coin was made by adding 's' to a genuine Philly issue 1909 V.D.B.
Being kind of Harshe on me, don't you think? lol. Yes, I went for a good long time thinking I had something really special with my ultimately determined to be counterfeit S V.D.B. that was slabbed as authentic by the #1 grading service. How about a little credit for me for surrendering it to PCGS through the dealer who sold it to me? I probably could have gotten it slabbed myself as authentic on a resubmission with a trueview picture and all. But that would have been wrong of me to try to do that, don't you agree? The way the deal with the dealer went was that I traded the original coin to him for another in the exact same grade. There was stipulation that if the original coin turned out to be genuine on a resubmission, the dealer would trade it back to me. The dealer who sold the original coin told me he submitted it raw to PCGS. He was grateful that I let him deal with the coin on the resubmission to PCGS.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I think this subject has been harsched and reharsched...
What more can I say. I believe in the book of Harsche, especially when it comes to identifying 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. varieties. I'm currently working on assembling a set of all 1909-S (without V.D.B.) 's' mintmark positions. Preferred grade is XF or better. Coins in the 6 piece set when completed, will be eventually all reside in PCGS slab. I'm not afraid to buy this date raw. Latest 1909-S LC i bought is a gorgeous (choice XF) example from Harsche numbered die #1. Mintmark is high left and tilts a great deal. My example from die #6 (mintmark far low, far right) is currently in an ANACS VF-20 holder. Four to go for the basic set unless I expand my interest in this cool, magical Lincoln date and try for all the deep and shallow valley 'N''s ('N' in "UNITED" on a reverse) that might exist.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein