add your .02! (if you add .05 i'll give you .03 back)
galaxy27
Posts: 7,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
when you take a step back and thoroughly evaluate Bill Belly's entire head coaching career, the argument can be made that he's grossly overrated............even with 6 championships!
smh at anyone who thinks he deserves the lion's share of the credit for the Pats' dynastic run (if i knew where you were, i'd be looking directly at you, stevek)
dude should be rubbing Tom's feet and washing his car at least once a week for the rest of his life
with Brady as the starter:
2001.........11-5 (ring)
2002.........9-7
2003.........14-2 (ring)
2004.........14-2 (ring)
2005.........10-6
2006.........12-4
2007.........16-0
2008.........11-5
2009.........10-6
2010.........14-2
2011.........13-3
2012.........12-4
2013.........12-4
2014.........12-4 (ring)
2015.........12-4
2016.........14-2 (ring)
2017.........13-3
2018.........11-5 (ring)
2019.........12-4
without:
1991.........6-10
1992.........7-9
1993.........7-9
1994.........11-5
1995.........5-11 (cracker jack ring)
2000.........5-11 (cracker jack ring)
2020.........7-9
2021.........10-7
2022.........8-9
2023.........more ugliness to come
methinks this is a fun exercise. had Brady not come along, what would Belichick have ever accomplished as an HC?
i'll gladly answer my own question and hypothesize: based on the above, a more than sufficient sample size, he would have gotten canned many moons ago and never been given the reins of an NFL franchise again
he has done next to NOTHING without Brady, before and after
feel free to tell me where I've gone astray
Comments
It really is ironic that for years here, Perk,Crag & I were telling anyone that would listen that Brady was the driving force behind NE's success and there were certainly more people than just stevek telling us it was Belichick not Brady but we don't need to go there now. 😉
Its also ironic that since Brady flew the coop I've come to appreciate Bill Belichick the HC more even though i could sit here all day and cuss out BB the GM. Maybe nonPats fans won't view Bill as two different entities but I've seen Bill's game plans take out out the opposing team's best weapons for 20+ years now. Shutting down the Greatest Show on Turf in '01,Owning Peyton Manning for those early years,Holding the #1 offense in the Colts to 3pts in rd1 then dropping 41pts on the #1 defense in Pittsburgh a week later, Not calling a to seconds before Malcolm Butler rise to fame,completely shutting down Atlanta after 28-3. We all know how important he was to those early Giants SB teams.
Belichick is a defensive genius and sure he may not have won a SB in NE without Brady but he's also the guy that gave Brady his chance. Had Brady not been drafted at pick 199 by NE then we're probably not having this discussion right now. He might have bounced around on the PS here or there. In NE everything went his way after Bledsoe got hurt and he had Belchick making the decision to keep the 6th rounder over the recently signed 100M QB Bledsoe, not many other coaches would have gone with the kid when the ink from Bledsoe's contract hadn't dried yet.
Us Pats fans were lucky enough to have both at their peak for a good 20+ years so its really all gravy from my viewpoint. Would Tom have become the great QB without Belichick? Maybe but if you actually listen to Brady talk on this subject and he'll tell it true that he wouldn't be the QB he was without Belichick.
Looking back i've always wondered what a Belichick/Bledsoe pairing would have looked like over time. Drew was one of the better NFL QBs at the time and had just taken NE to the SB in '96. I've got nothing but respect for Bledsoe when he was the Patriots player(along with Kraft buying the team and Parcells coaching it) that started turning the franchise around before Brady & Belichick did their thing years later.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
@erikthredd exactly what i was hoping for. good, informative post. doesn't necessarily change my opinion lol, but it does break up the density between my ears
i just find it to be a glaring, yet fascinating dichotomy
I think where Bill lost his fastball most is,this current era of football and salaries aren't the same as it was in the 2000's. Literally every positional salary,but running back, has gone up and BB has always been known for being thrifty. That might have worked when you had Brady leading you to the AFFCG every other year but Tom was always reworking his contract to create more salary cap for the team to add more talent.
These days in order to be successful, you really can't be buying at bargain basement prices if you don't have either that Tom Brady who was willing to help the team out. Or finding that next sleeper Qb in the draft who can lead you to some success while on a rookie contract and Mac hasn't been that guy.
I don't know if it was seeing Brady win with TB or if all of the reports were true that drafting Mac Jones was Kraft's pick not Bill's but this past year plus has just been extremely odd from a Pats fan viewpoint. BB decides to let to of his former coordinators take over as OC which made zero sense even though he's always promoted coaches from within. This might have worked elsewhere but not with a team coming off the success they they just had over the previous 20 years.
Say what you will about Mac the QB but going with 2 guys who have never called an offensive play before set his development back to the beginning. Then you hurt it even more by not adding any significant offensive playmakers or even just a legit starting Left Tackle. Again, Brady was capable of lifting up those no-name players that he worked with on offense and at this point we're not even sure if Mac is ready to have the training wheels off yet. Thats on Belichick.
I just listened to a podcast yesterday talking about how Bill has loaded up on his defense where they're deep at every position with numerous players making decent salary. Yet when you look at the offense right now its the exact opposite.
One Qb on the roster who has played in an NFL game who is on a rookie contract.
Two RBs which should make for a decent 1-2 punch but literally no one else behind them.
Two TEs that are FAs after this season and one is already hurt.
Their OL group has alot of depth but not much high end talent. You don't which version of LT will show with Trent Brown,the guy who protected Brady to a SB win or the guy that can't decide if he wants to just call it quits or not. Their best Olineman,Michael Onwenu is currently hurt and due to be a FA at season's end. Who knows if he returns,probably not.
The WR group has me somewhat hopeful just by adding JuJu and hearing all of the rave reviews about rookies Demario Douglas and Kayshon Boutte coming out of camp. There should be an improvement on recent years but even then,Belichick had the chance to add DeAndre Hopkins and decided to get cheap at the last minute even though they could have signed Hopkins & Zeke had they wanted to.
Bill's frugalness on the offensive side of the ball will be what holds this team back and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Nor do I see him leaving his role as Pats HC until after he passes Shula's wins record.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
i'm done ranting now lol. Belichick is finding out that his way of doing things might have worked when you had the GOAT but he's long gone and this this era of football might have already passed Bill by.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
@erikthredd put a lot of my feelings into his responses. Well-done!
This is a topic that I love, for obvious reasons.
I've called it a perfect storm, and I say it again now.
As a Patriots fan, I lived it in real time, and saw the two competing narratives form, intertwine, and cross paths throughout the double dynasty.
Reading about Brady's pre-Patriot days and first year in the league gave me enough information that in retrospect I can say with a lot of confidence that Brady was creating the "Patriot way" even before he was drafted.
In your list above, @galaxy27 , you forgot to mention that 2008 was the Matt Cassell year. In fact, it is that year that was talked about ad nauseam as proof that it was in fact Belichick who brought the special sauce...that is until the second half of the double dynasty happened.
Belichick was absolutely in the right place at the right time, and played a big role in things. Belichick the head coach is legendary.
Brady is very close with his father. When choosing a college, his dad wanted and expected him to stay in California, but Brady intentionally went to Michigan because he knew that he needed to. His father had to go into therapy to deal with the sudden separation. At Michigan Brady, as is known , faced adversity in regard to was he or wasn't he the starter. He thought about transferring. Long story short, the work he did with sports psychologist Greg Harden at Michigan really started to mold Brady into the player we would come to know.
However, like I said, it was a perfect storm that brought Belichick and Brady together, and while I do give a large majority of credit to Brady, Belichick seems to have been instrumental. I often point to the game winning drive in the first NE SB win. Watching that now, Brady had it before we thought he did. And Belichick trusted him. I also often like to point out a regular season game against Buffalo during that first Brady season as a turning point. Belichick went to Brady after the game and let him know that he would not have a long career if he kept doing things like this.
I don't know if this comparison applies here, but I'll throw it out for further discussion. In horse racing most jockeys when asked is it the horse or jockey will reply":if I don't have the horse under me I don't win. So is BB the guiding jockey and Tom the horse?
We can really simplify it, what coach has ever won without elite players? Coaches can lose games but dont win games in the pros.
Most here worship the ground Brady walks on, so I am not going to do the research again, but I believe the Patriots had some very good defensive teams when they won their championships.
Belichic (I think) had a lot to do with that.
..
For sure Belichick played a huge role.
It was fate that BB and TB were put together. There’s no separating the accomplishments.
Just like Montana, Rice
Just like Jimmy Page, Robert Plant or Freddie Mercury and Brian May. Elton John and Bernie Tarpin in music.
BB was a defensive genius but like all coaches time passes them by. I think Bill is hanging around for the record at this point
If the Patriots had a GM with an eye for offensive talent things might be different but the GM is a defensive guy
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
This is enough sense to cover my thoughts as well.
I've flat out have always had arguments with sports guys about this and the proof is in the pudding,
The 20 year marriage between these guys was a great thing that we were blessed with in New England and with the risk of getting verbally berated I will say that I feel we left a few Super Bowls on the table and Hoodie is to blame.
I've seen Big Bill make some very questionable pig headed de isions over the years like keeping Brady in during blow out rampages and other key players.
Notable things that irk the crap out of me..
AFC divisional playoff game 2009? Against the Jets we are down 2 scores in the 4th and he would not stop ordering draw plays with Danny Woodhead
Putting Gronk in on a meaningless extra point attempt in a sure playoff win and he breaks his arm
Allowing our secondary to get torched during the Super Bowl against Philly while keeping Butler our best DB on the bench because he was pissed off at him
Hanging Brady out to dry during his last season in NE with literally no name WR's or weapons at his disposal
Putting Gronk in as the last defensive player on a kick return against Miami and Ofcourse he can't move quick enough to tackle a speedy returner who broke through
Bill and his GM moves along with consistently de valuing players
Obviously Bill has done a lot of good things and we were lucky to have him but him and us fans were more lucky to have Brady
You can’t totally blame Bill for poor draft selections.
Steelers have the best winning percentage in NFL history and they stunk before 1970.
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
....
I hit agree, but there is one thing on your list that I feel was symptomatic of what made the Belichick/Brady marriage the most successful of all. I'm referring to leaving Brady in too long unnecessarily. I have a feeling that a lot of that came from Brady's end and was representative of what made him tick.
They wouldn’t have stunk before 1970 if their top draft pick from 1957 had actually got to play. Len Dawson sat on the bench for 3 years with the Steelers. If the Steelers were smart enough to play him then Bradshaw would have at best been Pittsburghs second best QB of all time and possibly wouldn’t have been a starter until 1976-77.
Let me guess.
You have special hypnotic powers that allows you to see what could of happened in the past.
Tell us, how would of Dallas done with Danny White instead of Staubach in the 79 Super Bowl.
But in all seriousness, not only did Pittsburgh let him go after 3 years, but he then only lasted 2 years in Cleveland before KC picked him up.
Had a nice career. Good QB.
Hi 4for4, no special powers just common sense. Dawson didn’t start until he was 27 and was still better than Bradshaw so if he had 4-5 more years at the start of his career it only makes sense he would have put even more distance (career numbers between himself and Bradshaw. Go check len’s football reference numbers sometime and note all the bold numbers denoting league leader
Me thinks you lack common sense.
Because common sense would instruct you that Terry’s better QB rating in the postseason and Super Bowls over Staubach AND Dawson is the reason there’s no replacing Bradshaw.
If Pittsburgh had Dawson’s lifetime 77 QB rating in the postseason instead of Bradshaw’s 83 then lots of close games are lost.
Bradshaw had better postseason stats then Staubach and Dawson.
That’s why he’s better then them.
Any QB could make the postseason on Dallas or Pittsburgh.
Common sense stuff there pal.
No more responses to Darin cause all he does is start strife here anyway with illogical posts.
Dawson a 77 postseason QB rate and a -1 TD to INT ratio to
Bradshaw’s 83 postseason QB rate and a +4 TD to INT ratio.
Pittsburgh made the right decision by far or they’d have two rings instead of four.
Bill Belichick is on his way out the door soon. Good luck to a guy who had a great career.
Dawson had a 83 career reg season passer rating to bradshaws 72. Dawson would have won 7 Super Bowls with Pittsburgh. They won 4 Super Bowls in spite of bradshaw not because of him.
When is your next user name change?
You’re an uninformed poster who just enjoys stirring the pot with everyone.
Common sense would instruct you why Dawson is slightly above 80% for his career and why Griese and Bradshaw are below 80% for theirs.
If you understood Shula and Noll’s offense in the 70’s you’d understand.
I don’t want to waste my time.
Pittsburgh was 6-0 with Kruczek.
What makes you think they needed Dawson ? He sucked in the postseason.
You can continue to live in your uninformed dreamworld.
🏈🏈🏈🏈
Bradshaw
You know Applejacks, when you first showed up a while back, I originally thought you were @1970s returning from a long hiatus, but it has become clear that you are in fact @4for4, aka @Goldenage, whether you want to admit it or not. This is a small, tight knit community, and you can't fool people around here for long. I have no problem with you posting here, just don't start anything with me.
🤣😂🤣
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I dont know DD. Sometimes I really like some AppleJacks, you know, with some nice cold milk.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
do i create some epic threads or what
I actually just wanted to make sure it was 4for4 aka goldy. It is!
I didn’t think it was too cool of 4for4 when double D was asking him to come back as 4for4 but then he shows up with a different user name instead.
He picked a good cereal!
I would have picked Cap’n Crunch. 😅
...
https://youtu.be/QAXnPJiOWVw?feature=shared
Actually, this would have been apropos.
I will only add this because it's true: Looking back 10 years ago most everyone, at this site included, believed that Bill Belichick walked on water.
It isn't the popular thing to say today but it was the truth in the past.
Taste them him again
For the first time
Corn Pops for me!
I've tried over the years to eat Corn Flakes, can't do it without adding lots of sugar, same with Rice Krispies.
Even with how bad the past two seasons have gone in NE, I still think he deserves far more credit for NE's 20+yrs dynasty than many want to give him credit for. I'll always believe that Brady should get most of it but I'd put it in the 70-30/65-35 range.
If you weren't watching Belichick on a game by game basis for all of those years,you really weren't getting the full picture. It really is a shame that the team has fallen off as far as it has in these recent years because those 6Sbs never happen without Bill Belichick.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Raisin Bran, very underrated. 👍
Store bought cereal with the artificial sweeteners, colorings, preservatives, etc in it? That chit is poison. Might as well make it complete by sprinkling cyanide on it. Gives it a delicious bitter almond flavor.
Smarten up your diet and instead buy organic rolled oats. My favorite is to add frozen organic wild blueberries to it, and add bottled water, for a very tasty, healthy snack or even a small meal. Other berries are great as well such as strawberries, raspberries, etc. Could also sprinkle in some organic non-salted walnut pieces in there.
Your body will thank you for it. 😊
Stay away from me Lucky Charms!
Seriously, bottled water?
Guess you haven’t heard about the leaching.
Your diet really sounds unhealthy as chit. Do like I did and plant a couple acres of bamboo. Then go out every mealtime and eat bamboo shoots. Your body will thank you. The only drawback is once your dietary utopia is established you’ll have to fight off pandas to get your 3 square meals a day.
Also once a year I go to the Antarctic and get 10000 lbs of thousand year old arctic ice. Then come back and melt it at my convenience for drinking water. The 1,000 year old stuff is imbedded with many healthy nutrients that the younger ice just doesn’t have. Hope this helps!
what about sitting on your front porch in nothing but bill belichick underwear eating a bowl of apple jacks with bamboo shoot chunks doused with bottled water
it's all coalescing beautifully now
Good post. Introduce that idea to a fast food chain. They might like it. Probably healthier than the french fries. 🤣
Lucky Charms - the finest food that modern chemistry can produce. 😆
You're talking about definitive first ballot Hall of Famer, perhaps unanimous, that Bill Belichick? 😉
Have a bowl Steve, just one bowl, I promise you won't regret it. They're magically delicious!
"Whole Grain Oats, Sugar, Whole Grain Corn, Corn Starch, Corn Syrup, Dextrose. Contains 2% or less of: Salt, Modified Corn Starch, Gelatin, Trisodium Phosphate, Red 40, Yellow 5 & 6, Blue 1, Natural and Artificial Flavor. Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) Added to Preserve Freshness."
Maybe you're right. I've had a craving for that Red 40 all day long. 😉
"Red dye 40 is a synthetic food dye made from petroleum. Research has shown that it is linked to certain ADHD symptoms, such as hyperactivity, and may also cause other neurobehavioral effects in children. People can check for red dye 40 on food labels if they wish to limit their intake."
Good grief - I'm too afraid to look at the other colors' descriptions, etc.
Well this is my last post on the subject of cereal. Besides, I've got some vital contemplation to consider about the upcoming Eagles game. Yes that's right, the 10-1 Eagles with the best record in the NFL. 😎
Has anybody ever broken down the defensive structure of when Brady was there compared to when he wasn't? Maybe they just had a better defense helping them win alot of those games. Can't win consistently with just an offense - Look at Colorado University.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
On the farm, all my Mom fed me was
I did quite some time ago after hearing the Brady worshippers constantly giving him all the credit.
Pretty obvious that they won when they had Brady AND a top 10 defense and didn't when they had a poorer defensive unit.
Let me throw this one at you and see if it works. How about Bill Belichick getting locked out on his porch in his underwear looking like he's lost his Apple Jacks? 😎
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gVUrqRP3BFk
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486