New proposal to PCGS and CAC. Preprinted stickers for Educational Service.

Walkerlover

My idea is for the TPG services to preprint the main causes for crossover failure and not passing CAC. So there would be stickers for PVC, Questionable color, excessive contact marks, high point friction, toning issues, artificial color, poor luster,etc.

So the graders would simply affix the appropriate sticker or stickers to the coin slab.
Perhaps they would charge a few extra dollars. This would satisfy collectors who wish to know why their coin failed without imposing an undue effort by the grading services to accommodate them. What do you guys think?

IkesT

What do you think we will think?

Walkerlover

@IkesT said:
What do you think we will think?

I don’t really know. I think its a great idea and I would guess most collectors would be for it. Whether er the services would ever do it I haven’t any idea, maybe it should be proposed to JA personally.

GRANDAM

Would take too much time,,,,,, fumbling thru various sheets of stickers,,,,

ain't gonna happen.

jmlanzaf

@Walkerlover said:

@IkesT said:
What do you think we will think?

I don’t really know. I think its a great idea and I would guess most collectors would be for it. Whether er the services would ever do it I haven’t any idea, maybe it should be proposed to JA personally.

How many stickers do you want on your coin?

No one would want it on there. NO ONE including YOU. They would IMMEDIATELY be peeled off. What you want is a line in the invoice explaining the decision, NOT a sticker.

You're asking for a giant scarlet letter on the coin. So you've got a solid NGC 64 dollar. Your going to send it to PCGS for a "Questionable color" label to be slapped on it to decrease its market value?

PCGS is also not going to get into a war with NGC by slapping an "overgraded" label on a bunch of NGC slabs.

You send your MS62 busy half to CAC and it gets a giant red "cabinet friction" label in it. You can now sell your MS62 slab for AU prices - and you paid for the loss of value.

The_Dinosaur_Man

If anything we need a special blast white sticker to honor the late RickO.

P0CKETCHANGE

I would gladly pay for the information, but would not want it delivered in the way you suggested.

Cougar1978

A bad idea - Against it. Plus Don’t want sticker garbage on my slabs. Furthermore if something I sent in failed to upgrade, etc that is proprietary to my business. For my info only. Don’t own any CAC at this time (sold out) if acquire any in future would be CACG if deal even there (10 pct back of bid).

lermish

It doesn't sound like you are proposing a permanent CAC style sticker, more like one of the red PVC dots that JA will put on a non-CAC passing coin?

If yes, that's fine although I agree with others that an invoice line item accomplishes the same thing and the graders could push a button rather than deal with a physical sticker.

U1chicago

@lermish said:
It doesn't sound like you are proposing a permanent CAC style sticker, more like one of the red PVC dots that JA will put on a non-CAC passing coin?

If yes, that's fine although I agree with others that an invoice line item accomplishes the same thing and the graders could push a button rather than deal with a physical sticker.

I read this the same way-one of those JA red stickers that identify the issue and are easily removable. PCGS does it too with some crossover coins-I had a PCI slab returned with a PCGS label in a flip that said questionable color.

Eighteen63

@jmlanzaf said:
How many stickers do you want on your coin?

As many as possible avouching the lack of knowledge and/or grading skill.

BStrauss3

@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If anything we need a special blast white sticker to honor the late RickO.

That exists - look for "Sight White"

mark_dak

@Eighteen63 said:

As many as possible avouching the lack of knowledge and/or grading skill.

I have a feeling those stickers aren't there for reading purposes. I suspect they are keeping all the parts from ending up on the highway.

Mark

logger7

Would just confuse and deter. Especially if the problems precluding the sticker are minor. Stickers were popular in kinder garden and grade school, less so as I (hopefully) reached maturity.

Catbert

I’d only want non removable WOW stickers for my coins.

Seriously, there is little upside for TPGs to do this since they don’t want to encourage complaints and litigation.

Regarding stickering, Imagine the chaos when a rejection sticker is taken off one coin and applied to another.

Walkerlover

@jmlanzaf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@IkesT said:
What do you think we will think?

I don’t really know. I think its a great idea and I would guess most collectors would be for it. Whether er the services would ever do it I haven’t any idea, maybe it should be proposed to JA personally.

How many stickers do you want on your coin?

No one would want it on there. NO ONE including YOU. They would IMMEDIATELY be peeled off. What you want is a line in the invoice explaining the decision, NOT a sticker.

You're asking for a giant scarlet letter on the coin. So you've got a solid NGC 64 dollar. Your going to send it to PCGS for a "Questionable color" label to be slapped on it to decrease its market value?

PCGS is also not going to get into a war with NGC by slapping an "overgraded" label on a bunch of NGC slabs.

You send your MS62 busy half to CAC and it gets a giant red "cabinet friction" label in it. You can now sell your MS62 slab for AU prices - and you paid for the loss of value.

You misunderstood. A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.

fathom

Like this?

Walkerlover

@Catbert said:
I’d only want non removable WOW stickers for my coins.

Seriously, there is little upside for TPGs to do this since they don’t want to encourage complaints and litigation.

Regarding stickering, Imagine the chaos when a rejection sticker is taken off one coin and applied to another.

There are no complaints or litigation. It would be like the red or yellow dots JA affixes to coins he looked at. You are blowing this out of proportion. For collector use only!!!

Exbrit

@Eighteen63 said:

@jmlanzaf said:
How many stickers do you want on your coin?

As many as possible avouching the lack of knowledge and/or grading skill.

I think that the owner of this car needs some serious help!

Cougar1978

Bad idea - no more sticker garbage please. If my coin failed to cross or whatever that’s something I want keep confidential…..it’s my investment money.

jmlanzaf

@Walkerlover said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@IkesT said:
What do you think we will think?

I don’t really know. I think its a great idea and I would guess most collectors would be for it. Whether er the services would ever do it I haven’t any idea, maybe it should be proposed to JA personally.

How many stickers do you want on your coin?

No one would want it on there. NO ONE including YOU. They would IMMEDIATELY be peeled off. What you want is a line in the invoice explaining the decision, NOT a sticker.

You're asking for a giant scarlet letter on the coin. So you've got a solid NGC 64 dollar. Your going to send it to PCGS for a "Questionable color" label to be slapped on it to decrease its market value?

PCGS is also not going to get into a war with NGC by slapping an "overgraded" label on a bunch of NGC slabs.

You send your MS62 busy half to CAC and it gets a giant red "cabinet friction" label in it. You can now sell your MS62 slab for AU prices - and you paid for the loss of value.

You misunderstood. A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.

Maybe you poorly explained it.

And why wouldn't an invoice comment suffice?

And a DNC is often just a DNC. And a fall to pass is often just a fall to pass. There may not be any specific reason other than it didn't meet the grade standard. Will you feel better if your DNC has a sticker that just says DNC?

Walkerlover

@jmlanzaf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@IkesT said:
What do you think we will think?

I don’t really know. I think its a great idea and I would guess most collectors would be for it. Whether er the services would ever do it I haven’t any idea, maybe it should be proposed to JA personally.

How many stickers do you want on your coin?

No one would want it on there. NO ONE including YOU. They would IMMEDIATELY be peeled off. What you want is a line in the invoice explaining the decision, NOT a sticker.

You're asking for a giant scarlet letter on the coin. So you've got a solid NGC 64 dollar. Your going to send it to PCGS for a "Questionable color" label to be slapped on it to decrease its market value?

PCGS is also not going to get into a war with NGC by slapping an "overgraded" label on a bunch of NGC slabs.

You send your MS62 busy half to CAC and it gets a giant red "cabinet friction" label in it. You can now sell your MS62 slab for AU prices - and you paid for the loss of value.

You misunderstood. A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.

Maybe you poorly explained it.

And why wouldn't an invoice comment suffice?

And a DNC is often just a DNC. And a fall to pass is often just a fall to pass. There may not be any specific reason other than it didn't meet the grade standard. Will you feel better if your DNC has a sticker that just says DNC?

I didn’t say an invoice comment wouldn’t suffice. I just suggested stickers it could be in another form. There would be a sticker for all common reasons for not passing including not meeting the grade standard. I detect a hostile tone in your comments. I am looking for a simple solution for a big problem the frustration of collectors not knowing why their coins failed. There is no reason that the grading services can’t accommodate the vast community of collectors who are loyal to them and paying good money.

privatecoin

@U1chicago said:

@lermish said:
It doesn't sound like you are proposing a permanent CAC style sticker, more like one of the red PVC dots that JA will put on a non-CAC passing coin?

If yes, that's fine although I agree with others that an invoice line item accomplishes the same thing and the graders could push a button rather than deal with a physical sticker.

I read this the same way-one of those JA red stickers that identify the issue and are easily removable. PCGS does it too with some crossover coins-I had a PCI slab returned with a PCGS label in a flip that said questionable color.

Every pci with color I've sent in came back QC.

U1chicago

@privatecoin said:

@U1chicago said:

@lermish said:
It doesn't sound like you are proposing a permanent CAC style sticker, more like one of the red PVC dots that JA will put on a non-CAC passing coin?

If yes, that's fine although I agree with others that an invoice line item accomplishes the same thing and the graders could push a button rather than deal with a physical sticker.

I read this the same way-one of those JA red stickers that identify the issue and are easily removable. PCGS does it too with some crossover coins-I had a PCI slab returned with a PCGS label in a flip that said questionable color.

Every pci with color I've sent in came back QC.

It seems to be a mixed bag as I’ve seen plenty cross, especially silver eagles. The one I sent was definitely a more questionable case but I thought it was worth a try just in case it did cross.

FlyingAl

And how much does the collector need to pay up for this service?

I bet they'd consider it for $25 extra per coin.

Eighteen63

@Walkerlover said: You misunderstood. A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.

@Walkerlover said: You are blowing this out of proportion. For collector use only!!!

@Stickerlover
Here we go again - Look at what you posted, even following your own edit of the OP. Are the words “ A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.” anywhere in your original post? Is it even inferred in your OP? Why is it, with you, the problem is continually someone else’s (mis)understanding, (mis)comprehension or (mis)perception of what you post and seldom, if ever, your responsibility?
At this point, even you must see a pattern? Enough finger-pointing, the problem is with your communication.

Walkerlover

@Eighteen63 said:

@Walkerlover said: You misunderstood. A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.

@Walkerlover said: You are blowing this out of proportion. For collector use only!!!

@Stickerlover
Here we go again - Look at what you posted, even following your own edit of the OP. Are the words “ A sticker with light adhesive to be immediately peeled off by the collector or investor.” anywhere in your original post? Is it even inferred in your OP? Why is it, with you, the problem is continually someone else’s (mis)understanding, (mis)comprehension or (mis)perception of what you post and seldom, if ever, your responsibility?
At this point, even you must see a pattern? Enough finger-pointing, the problem is with your communication.

I should have been more specific in my post l agree. But I didn’t realize that there would be confusion which I certainly didn’t intend. But why would people think I would intend there to be a permanent sticker that would put a scarlet mark, ruining the coin, as that would be the complete opposite of help the collectors

coinbuf

While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

ProofCollection

Well of course anyone submitting coins would love to have some feedback vs no feedback. Most would even pay a few dollars extra for it. I support your efforts to persuade the TPGs to implement this feedback whether in the form of easily-removed sticker, post it note, coded bodybag, or invoice comment.

Walkerlover

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

Than what is the difference if JA puts his red dot sticker on a coin saying to many bag marks, as he recently did for my coin, and what I am proposing. Aren’t you perhaps overthinking this simple idea. Why would the submitter leave the removable sticker on their coin when selling it?

coinbuf

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

Than what is the difference if JA puts his red dot sticker on a coin saying to many bag marks, as he recently did for my coin, and what I am proposing. Aren’t you perhaps overthinking this simple idea. Why would the submitter leave the removable sticker on their coin when selling it?

Trust me this idea needs very little thought, also my name is not JA, if you want an answer as to why he occasionally puts a red sticker on a coin you would have to ask him that question. I have never gotten a coin back from CAC with one of those dot stickers.

As to your second question what if you or I kick off tomorrow, would your heirs know to remove that sticker before listing on ebay? I'm not saying or suggesting it would happen every day, but the law of averages dictates that at some point one would be listed on a public marketplace eventually.

And besides info about any TPG degenerating a competitors product with little stickers is going to get back to the other TPG's quickly even if one never enters the marketplace with such a sticker on it. Think about all the show reports you read where dealers are wining and dining with each other and members of the TPG staff at all the shows. Something like that is going to get talked about.

Walkerlover

@coinbuf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

Than what is the difference if JA puts his red dot sticker on a coin saying to many bag marks, as he recently did for my coin, and what I am proposing. Aren’t you perhaps overthinking this simple idea. Why would the submitter leave the removable sticker on their coin when selling it?

Trust me this idea needs very little thought, also my name is not JA, if you want an answer as to why he occasionally puts a red sticker on a coin you would have to ask him that question. I have never gotten a coin back from CAC with one of those dot stickers.

As to your second question what if you or I kick off tomorrow, would your heirs know to remove that sticker before listing on ebay? I'm not saying or suggesting it would happen every day, but the law of averages dictates that at some point one would be listed on a public marketplace eventually.

And besides info about any TPG degenerating a competitors product with little stickers is going to get back to the other TPG's quickly even if one never enters the marketplace with such a sticker on it. Think about all the show reports you read where dealers are wining and dining with each other and members of the TPG staff at all the shows. Something like that is going to get talked about.

To your first point I would think that the collector would remove the sticker almost immediately as there is no reason to keep it on the holder permanently. By the way I am fine with that information being electronically posted on the submitters invoice.

jmlanzaf

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

Than what is the difference if JA puts his red dot sticker on a coin saying to many bag marks, as he recently did for my coin, and what I am proposing. Aren’t you perhaps overthinking this simple idea. Why would the submitter leave the removable sticker on their coin when selling it?

Trust me this idea needs very little thought, also my name is not JA, if you want an answer as to why he occasionally puts a red sticker on a coin you would have to ask him that question. I have never gotten a coin back from CAC with one of those dot stickers.

As to your second question what if you or I kick off tomorrow, would your heirs know to remove that sticker before listing on ebay? I'm not saying or suggesting it would happen every day, but the law of averages dictates that at some point one would be listed on a public marketplace eventually.

And besides info about any TPG degenerating a competitors product with little stickers is going to get back to the other TPG's quickly even if one never enters the marketplace with such a sticker on it. Think about all the show reports you read where dealers are wining and dining with each other and members of the TPG staff at all the shows. Something like that is going to get talked about.

To your first point I would think that the collector would remove the sticker almost immediately as there is no reason to keep it on the holder permanently. By the way I am fine with that information being electronically posted on the submitters invoice.

I don't see the need 95% of the time. DNC or fail to pass is obviously just a coin that didn't meet the standard. On the more rare case of putty or PVC, it might be educational to know. But 95% of the time you're going to be complaining that you didn't get an explanation.. like now.

Also, keep in mind that they're is not a single opinion. Graders work in teams.

Walkerlover

@jmlanzaf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

Than what is the difference if JA puts his red dot sticker on a coin saying to many bag marks, as he recently did for my coin, and what I am proposing. Aren’t you perhaps overthinking this simple idea. Why would the submitter leave the removable sticker on their coin when selling it?

Trust me this idea needs very little thought, also my name is not JA, if you want an answer as to why he occasionally puts a red sticker on a coin you would have to ask him that question. I have never gotten a coin back from CAC with one of those dot stickers.

As to your second question what if you or I kick off tomorrow, would your heirs know to remove that sticker before listing on ebay? I'm not saying or suggesting it would happen every day, but the law of averages dictates that at some point one would be listed on a public marketplace eventually.

And besides info about any TPG degenerating a competitors product with little stickers is going to get back to the other TPG's quickly even if one never enters the marketplace with such a sticker on it. Think about all the show reports you read where dealers are wining and dining with each other and members of the TPG staff at all the shows. Something like that is going to get talked about.

To your first point I would think that the collector would remove the sticker almost immediately as there is no reason to keep it on the holder permanently. By the way I am fine with that information being electronically posted on the submitters invoice.

I don't see the need 95% of the time. DNC or fail to pass is obviously just a coin that didn't meet the standard. On the more rare case of putty or PVC, it might be educational to know. But 95% of the time you're going to be complaining that you didn't get an explanation.. like now.

Also, keep in mind that they're is not a single opinion. Graders work in teams.

Okay you win. I can’t convince you otherwise and you are set in your opinion

Cougar1978

As far as somebody putting a red dot sticker (neg) on my slabbed coin - I would remove it lol. Plus that guy and his minions would never get another dime of my money again.

As far as education - take responsibility and take the ANA course on how to grade coins.

Catbert

@Walkerlover said:

@Catbert said:
I’d only want non removable WOW stickers for my coins.

Seriously, there is little upside for TPGs to do this since they don’t want to encourage complaints and litigation.

Regarding stickering, Imagine the chaos when a rejection sticker is taken off one coin and applied to another.

There are no complaints or litigation. It would be like the red or yellow dots JA affixes to coins he looked at. You are blowing this out of proportion. For collector use only!!!

I understand and respect the desire to learn why something failed. I too would like to have this specific information.

However, a question for you. If it is commonly understood that grading involves a heavy dose of subjectivity, why do you think the TPGs don't provide this information?

messydesk

@BStrauss3 said:

@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If anything we need a special blast white sticker to honor the late RickO.

That exists - look for "Sight White"

I'd prefer a RickO sticker.

ProofCollection

@jmlanzaf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:

@Walkerlover said:

@coinbuf said:
While I agree that many collectors would like this information, I think the liability of putting an over graded sticker on a crossover of (insert your other TPG of choice here) precludes any chance of this happening. I get that the submitter could easily remove the sticker, but without a doubt somehow someway you would see these show up on ebay.

And while some might be willing to pay for this add-on service, I'd be willing to bet that many would not.

Than what is the difference if JA puts his red dot sticker on a coin saying to many bag marks, as he recently did for my coin, and what I am proposing. Aren’t you perhaps overthinking this simple idea. Why would the submitter leave the removable sticker on their coin when selling it?

Trust me this idea needs very little thought, also my name is not JA, if you want an answer as to why he occasionally puts a red sticker on a coin you would have to ask him that question. I have never gotten a coin back from CAC with one of those dot stickers.

As to your second question what if you or I kick off tomorrow, would your heirs know to remove that sticker before listing on ebay? I'm not saying or suggesting it would happen every day, but the law of averages dictates that at some point one would be listed on a public marketplace eventually.

And besides info about any TPG degenerating a competitors product with little stickers is going to get back to the other TPG's quickly even if one never enters the marketplace with such a sticker on it. Think about all the show reports you read where dealers are wining and dining with each other and members of the TPG staff at all the shows. Something like that is going to get talked about.

To your first point I would think that the collector would remove the sticker almost immediately as there is no reason to keep it on the holder permanently. By the way I am fine with that information being electronically posted on the submitters invoice.

I don't see the need 95% of the time. DNC or fail to pass is obviously just a coin that didn't meet the standard. On the more rare case of putty or PVC, it might be educational to know. But 95% of the time you're going to be complaining that you didn't get an explanation.. like now.

Also, keep in mind that they're is not a single opinion. Graders work in teams.

It's not always that clear cut why a coin doesn't cross. Did an MS64 fail to cross because they thought is was MS63 or because it was AU? Did a MS65RD cent fail to cross because they thought it was MS64 or RB? Did an MS64DPL fail to cross because they thought it was MS63 or just PL? Or in any of these examples because they felt the coin was Details? It would be enormously valuable if the TPG would provide a grade opinion instead of just DNC. After all, we are paying for a grade opinion, why is it that they don't or won't give it to us if it doesn't match or exceed the existing grade or min grade specified?

In the real estate appraisal world, this would be like asking an appraiser to appraise the house you're buying but to only give you the value if it exceeds the offer price. Kind of ridiculous if you think about it.

BStrauss3

A lot easier to set up as a home inspector/appraiser than a TPG.