The real market for rattlers?
logger7
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I had a number of rattlers that I did as buy it nows with offers on ebay, was surprised at how quickly they sold. And in my opinion none of them were real upgrades.
How would you have sold a no problem 1889-s PL Morgan dollar in a PCGS rattler. I'm thinking that an auction with a starting bid would have been better. I would call this one a 64+ and likely cac pass. Common 64 pl money on this coin is around $1200 but 65 money is over $3K.
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Offer it on the Facebook group PCGS Rattlers - dedicated BST group for Rattlers only.
I love rattlers so when a nice one pops up, I go for them. I just did offer a large sum of money for an 1878 8TF MS65 in rattler and didn’t get the coin. I was/am still speechless that I didn’t get it for my proposed amount.
For your coin in question, possibly through a show or one of the auction sites Great Collections etc
The holder is -somewhat- collectible by itself. It's also seen as an upgrade target because standards are widely perceived to be looser than they were.
The problem is that a rattler that has been in and out of the market for 30 years has been looked at for an upgrade many many times and probably won't.
A rattler that hasn't been seen in the market for 30 years might be a good candidate for an upgrade (albeit reducing the rattler population).
Can you tell the difference?????
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Rattlers are going crazy, these days…
Storytime:
I have a 1942 S WLH MS 65 Rattler with a CAC sticker. I bought it around eight or nine years ago for $525, which I thought was absolute stupid money, but I paid up, because I liked the coin a lot and the slab and sticker combo certainly didn’t hurt. I thought I was buried…If I had waited, until the next day; I could’ve negotiated and, at least, got it for about $475 but it was an impulsive buy it now, as I didn’t want to lose it overnight. It’s really hard to sleep, when a nice coin you want is up for grabs, during the night, because you’re trying to save $50 lol
Well, one not as nice as mine but same grade and CAC sticker, in rattler holder, just sold on Great collections, a couple of months ago, for $1750 all in! Really glad that I bought my coin when I did!! That is normally just a $350 coin.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Haven't sold any yet. But have been collecting them for 17 years. And the price just seems to be getting higher.
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Geez, now I really feel bad!
Some years back, NGC announced their new “conservation” service, which sounded interesting at the time.
I had this hazy dog in an old holder, let’s get her professionally treated and in a nice new holder!
I’m guessing all they did was treat it with MS70 and put it in an NGC 64 holder, and send me back the remnants- arghhhh!
Rattlers were something IMO 30 years ago. Nearly all that represented undergraded coins have long since been regraded and in later holders. Most encountered now are in tombstones (especially PL Morgans), coins lucky to have the assigned grades and would never grade hat way again.
Getting away from the coins though, there is an older holder mania. Not my bag, but all the power to those who care about rattlers , doilies, old fatties, ...., or interesting certification numbers.
I’m a big fan of spotless Large Cents and IHCs in Rattlers, and they usually go for strong money. Not easy to find.
Dave
I have been purchasing an old collection a few at a time for months now. These old slabs haven't seen the light of day and hold some really nice upgrades. It's not safe to say that all old holders have been cracked and what remains are as graded. It's probably a percentage of 90% old holders are tombstones but the 10% have some nice upgrades. I'm just guessing though.
I wouldn't pay a high premium for an old slab unless I could see the coin in hand but that's just me.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
I assume the rattlers that bring the high money are cac stickered.
Correct
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I was turning down stupid money for this one 10 years ago. Purchased from Gary Adkins, long before this was considered an old holder:
The upward trend in the rattler market is an unstoppable force at the moment. I have no clue if/when it will subside.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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I picked these up today
Give me 20 years
Yawn 🥱
It has subsided at least a little in the u1 world. I have a rattler that I picked up for a bit less than the going rate and have not been able to resell it at that prior going rate. I have also seen a few of the common gold CAC rattlers drop a little (maybe 5%) but they are still 2x-3x of the 2019 levels.
Gold CAC helps a lot but sometimes no sticker is better than a green sticker on certain rattlers (including more common coins and those that are common at that grade level but can really increase in guide at 1-2 points higher). With a green people don't think it is an upgrade candidate but with no sticker they can still dream (even if that dream isn't likely to be reality) of getting the coveted gold or an upgrade.
Sunday morning, after week one of year 44 teaching HS English . . . perhaps time for a rare post. I'd rather read of your experiences than recount mine, but this thread keeps nagging at me.
I think at times we tend to classify experiences based on too small a sample size; I.e. my history with the Doilies having ANYTHING to do with Ratts (older posters will remember that timeframe -- I had about 77% of the Doily pop prior to becoming my own worst 'financial enemy' on eBay and the BST :-) ) At that time, I had also developed a fancy for the NGC Blacks, 2.1/2.0 NGCs and peripherals (Regencies, ANA Photoslabs, etc.). Study, experience, and discussion with the PCGS/NGC principals gave me a bit of info that at the time was fun for a misplaced history teacher to know.
And of course it gave you naysayers a great chance to spend a decade key-board proselytizing about this upstart "plastic collector". Of course . . . one of the things motivating me to keep up the daily battle is seeing the grizzled, non-smiling, cantankerous and seldom-showered retirees devour their words as Blacks are hitting $10k and the routine 2.0/2.1 common coins are hitting $2k (at least the ones I have sold).
Now . . . to drift to the point. Simply my observations. As I mentioned, sample size is a bane to all research study, and there are only a few qualified individuals here who graduated from Baylor or MIT in Plasticology and are authorized to shoot me down.
The mechanics of slab rarity are related to two things. Simply put . . . slab production rate multiplied by slab duration. Or, in an algebraic form, HFCWM x HLDTTGM (How Fast Can We Make-em? times How Long Did The Things Get Made?). This explains the relative 'rarity' (that word always gets thrashed around here, but I like it, and it is my post, so tough) of a slab. I.e. a Ratt may be the predecessor to all the cool and expensive Doilies and 2.0 variants (PCGS) etc., but they are afflicted with one problem when it comes to developing a huge price immediately. The slabbing duration was a factor of YEARS (3), not the days of a Doily (5, 6, or 9 . . . depending upon who you talked to or who remembered what) The slabbing RATE of the Doily was higher than the Ratt at the beginning, but pales in relation to the second factor of the equation.
Of course, you can also factor in perceived or real grading severity (toughness) during the duration of the slab, and that will alter a survival rate for every iteration of a slab series. Crackers, whether actually competent, or posers, DO affect the survival rate by attacking different versions of plastic with tools both hand and power.
And now we arrive at the Ratt. It has the perception of a tougher grading period (86-89) and crackout potential, which may be positives for rarity and cost-potential, but the ease of spotting one (size), slabbing duration, and sheer number of them still coming out are a hindrance to explosion of value. Now, are people either with forethought, idiocy, or malice, charging huge premiums on eBay and other sites? Yes . . . surely. Are they worth it? Perhaps. Are Ratts the next 'Doily'? Probably not, unless we get a 25-fold growth spurt in Plasticologists. I don't see that happening, but feel free to argue of course.
But are they cool, representative of history, a showplace of 'stable' coins, and grist for the Board posts? Is there potential?
I argue yes on both counts.
Drunner
(I usually post my long treatises down a bit on the pages where no one but Tim will see them.)
Great insight @DRUNNER. Not nearly as verbose as you'd think 44 years of HS English would account for.
Rattlers and Doilies are each peculiar in their own ways, the rattler for its size and being the first slab by PCGS, the doiley for its distinctive insert and short duration of production. I think there was a long perpetuated myth of rattlers and under-grading that made and keep them popular, but as @Drunner stated so eloquently, they made a boatload of them so they linger. The doilies are different altogether. There were never very many of them and the insert gives them a sexy look. Just the same, they built a reputation as valuable so collectors want them.
As for the important aspect of both holder types, the coins they encapsulate, it seems each type holds the full realm of under/correctly/over graded coins.
WOULD YOU LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE?
I WOULD NOT LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE.
I WOULD NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN RATTS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Every slab is sacred
Every slab is great
If a slab is wasted
God gets quite irate
.......... Monty Promo
Good to see you post @DRUNNER .
I've collected my share of old plastic, and was discussing the doilies and rattlers with Jerry Bobbe several years ago. Jerry was a grader at PCGS when the doilies came out in late 1989.
He stated that the very same time the doilies came out, David Hall stepped into the grading room and told all the graders to "loosen up a quarter of a point. " This meant that liner coins were to get the higher grade. Apparently, with the ongoing bullish coin market, dealers were complaining that grading tightness meant they weren't 'making' enough big coins to sell into the strong demand.
In Jerry's view, while many people regard the doilies as rare, he views them as a quarter of a point looser than the late rattlers.
For what it’s worth, prior to collecting coins in rattlers (started last year) I had no idea some of these coins were considered undergraded, or possibly rare or anything else for that matter. My first rattler was purchased because I thought it looked cool and the old green label just seemed to go better with the coin.
Have a friend that was working on a type set back in the 80's.
He submitted them to PCGS for grading - he currently has 14 gold coins, mostly sequential serial numbers with 1-2 minor gaps, all rattlers, still in the rattler box they came back in from PCGS.
Sent them to CAC recently, 6 green, 1 gold.
It's pretty cool to see an old time submission still intact!
Wow
Agree very cool.
For wiw I see many coins in rattlers or OGH on GC and they mostly seem to have issues. It seems like their owners are trying to dump these problem coins on unsuspecting bidders
I keep thinking I should cut lose a couple of nice ones I've been hanging on to... I just can't quite make myself do it despite the current inflated prices.
I keep thinking, "What the hell else would I spend that money on?"
I'm in a rut currently and am wrestling with new coins not giving me the spark that they once did.
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Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
I don’t know what the “real” market is on rattlers as I don’t collect them or have any until today. I just picked this one up for under bid so I’m assuming I did okay. The holder for being so old does not have any scratches on it and the coin has not turned in the holder. It must of been put away for a long time till recently.
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
Out of the sixteen+ years collecting Rattlers. I have only found two that were somewhat rare.
1795 50C VG-10
1893-S S$1 VG-8
I have them both, but I also have 460 + 2 more on the way. Listed on PCGS Registry, Collector showcase, First Generation Holders.
I have seen an 1856 1C MS-63 flying Eagle Cent but was out of my budget.
All this time collecting them I have also never bought the White Rattler, Came close but no.
If you look at my rattlers they are just really common coins that were graded then. Some of them I have no idea why someone would have spent the money on slabbing them.
I have only seen/noticed one rattler with some kind of error on or with the label.
1951 1C Lincoln with the label separated and reverse installed upside down. It is in my registry set.
But I will continue buying them.
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Wow! It must be really noisy in your house
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Fresh ones it can be hot-
If the coins nice PQ (A or b) can usually get about 85-90 pct CAC money wo sticker. Pieces w super cartwheel luster sell well. People who have the money and know how look at coins pay well for them. Many rabid for rattlers (their history, upgrade greed) pay big money.
Had picked up some from estate recently (probly had been put away for decades). then sold like wildfire at recent show, real deal retail customers. Some fresh really PQ stuff. If you can find a bunch not picked over….
Wow that 25-D 63 $2.50 rattler - looks 64 or 65. Looks as pristine as day it went in holder.