@dollarfan said:
i cant really grade well but it looked like a top end 64 to me and i never thought it could be higher but looking at it next to several other graded 64 morgans it looks like the boss. if this was a GTG where would you guys/gals guess?
I think I would have guessed 65 honestly. Definitely no less than 64+ but better pictures would help. Looks nice and clean with respect to abrasions but hard to judge luster in those pics.
@BStrauss3 said:
The whole green/gold is a farce. There were a pair of dealers at WFoM angrily complaining to each other that a coin had been gold, they sent it in, it upgraded only one point and then didn't bean so they ended up losing money beyond the grading fees.
They were thinking that a 63 gold --> 65 green should have been a lock, but instead, they ended up with a 64 no-bean.
At this point, it's not numismatics, it's not collecting, it's roulette.
I’m sorry, but I can’t give much merit to some hearsay at a show with no details or pictures. Honestly, what they did just sounds like a really poor business decision. Especially when gold beans already sell 1-2 grades up at a minimum. If anything, they could have tried to cross it specifying a minimum grade, OR they could have crossed it to CACG and automatically had CAC approval.
@PhillyJoe said:
I have three common date ,same year Morgans. One is PCGS 64 green sticker, one is NGC 64 green, one is CACG 64. All are solid for the grade according to the experts. How will the market treat them? Should be the same, right?
Why should they be the same? Each is graded by a different TPG. Buyers have other preferences as well—for ex., I prefer my coins in PCGS plastic with a TrueView, with the coin added to my PCGS Registry.
They are only the “same” if you completely disregard (and value as worthless) the grading opinions of PCGS and NGC, as well as the other aspects of their product and services that collectors may value.
I would use CDN CAC CPG for MV in my spreadsheet for all 3. At this point in time at least. I like consistency. Then from there pricing them for a show could vary based on cost / my assessment of the coin and where it falls in the grade range. As far as some mythical market god not going to be manipulated by that - everybody has their own opinion. Bobby rich guy know it all likes TPG A but won’t pay the money, Jimmy know it all Dumbo wants to low ball me on TPG B. My reg customer Frankie buys all 3 taking a 10 pct discount which works still leaving me room plus move them quick.
As usual, the award for the Solipsistic Post of the Day goes to...
@dollarfan said:
i cant really grade well but it looked like a top end 64 to me and i never thought it could be higher but looking at it next to several other graded 64 morgans it looks like the boss. if this was a GTG where would you guys/gals guess?
I think I would have guessed 65 honestly. Definitely no less than 64+ but better pictures would help. Looks nice and clean with respect to abrasions but hard to judge luster in those pics.
wow thats pretty good, tomorrow i will set up my camera rig and try to get better pics, that was my phone after 5 cups of java so you know how that goes . it seems almost PL to me
@PhillyJoe said:
I have three common date, same year Morgan's. One is PCGS 64 green sticker, one is NGC 64 green, one is CACG 64. All are solid for the grade according to the experts. How will the market treat them? Should be the same, right?
Absolutely SHOULD be valued the same, but in the real world, not so much.
Steve
Which shows you the exact problem with the PCGS/CAC mentality and plastic and sticker obsession is unhealthy in general. It creates faux scarcity based on plastic and stickers. It seems very few actually pay attention to the shiny metal disk in the middle.
One of the most interesting threads on this forum is one from TDN where he open muses over the pricing of a proof trade dollar as it goes from NGC to PCGS with and without a sticker for the same coin. The question remains: At what point did it become dreck and at what point did it cease being dreck?
@BStrauss3 said:
The whole green/gold is a farce. There were a pair of dealers at WFoM angrily complaining to each other that a coin had been gold, they sent it in, it upgraded only one point and then didn't bean so they ended up losing money beyond the grading fees.
They were thinking that a 63 gold --> 65 green should have been a lock, but instead, they ended up with a 64 no-bean.
At this point, it's not numismatics, it's not collecting, it's roulette.
I’m sorry, but I can’t give much merit to some hearsay at a show with no details or pictures. Honestly, what they did just sounds like a really poor business decision. Especially when gold beans already sell 1-2 grades up at a minimum. If anything, they could have tried to cross it specifying a minimum grade, OR they could have crossed it to CACG and automatically had CAC approval.
At what level? The gold sticker is ambiguous.
The only definite implication is +1 green. So they either specify+1 if they want to get a cross and bean or they specify a +2 if they absolutely want/ need a +2.
They clearly did not specify a +2 which I think is what Dan is suggesting since they got a +1 and were allegedly expecting/wanting +2.
Kudos to the Greysheet for its empiric approach. While it may not please everyone, it is the realistic way and far more ethical than making it up as you go along while pretending to be disinterested.
@PhillyJoe said:
I have three common date, same year Morgan's. One is PCGS 64 green sticker, one is NGC 64 green, one is CACG 64. All are solid for the grade according to the experts. How will the market treat them? Should be the same, right?
Absolutely SHOULD be valued the same, but in the real world, not so much.
Steve
Which shows you the exact problem with the PCGS/CAC mentality and plastic and sticker obsession is unhealthy in general. It creates faux scarcity based on plastic and stickers. It seems very few actually pay attention to the shiny metal disk in the middle.
One of the most interesting threads on this forum is one from TDN where he open muses over the pricing of a proof trade dollar as it goes from NGC to PCGS with and without a sticker for the same coin. The question remains: At what point did it become dreck and at what point did it cease being dreck?
I half agree with you, although I don't think it's "few" that pay attention to the coin.
The issue seems to me to be more a misunderstanding of price guides than coins and plastic. What seems to get lost is the value of a grade average as represented by a guide versus the market value of a specific coin. In theory, raw or in ANY plastic, including SEGS, the value of a given coin should be the same. In practice, the tendency is to see all coins in plastic of a certain grade to be equal.
@PhillyJoe said:
I have three common date, same year Morgan's. One is PCGS 64 green sticker, one is NGC 64 green, one is CACG 64. All are solid for the grade according to the experts. How will the market treat them? Should be the same, right?
Absolutely SHOULD be valued the same, but in the real world, not so much.
Steve
Which shows you the exact problem with the PCGS/CAC mentality and plastic and sticker obsession is unhealthy in general. It creates faux scarcity based on plastic and stickers. It seems very few actually pay attention to the shiny metal disk in the middle.
One of the most interesting threads on this forum is one from TDN where he open muses over the pricing of a proof trade dollar as it goes from NGC to PCGS with and without a sticker for the same coin. The question remains: At what point did it become dreck and at what point did it cease being dreck?
I half agree with you, although I don't think it's "few" that pay attention to the coin.
The issue seems to me to be more a misunderstanding of price guides than coins and plastic. What seems to get lost is the value of a grade average as represented by a guide versus the market value of a specific coin. In theory, raw or in ANY plastic, including SEGS, the value of a given coin should be the same. In practice, the tendency is to see all coins in plastic of a certain grade to be equal.
I agree with you. I took a $200 SEGS DCAM early Franklin, dipped it and submitted it to PCGS where it came back the same grade first try. I enjoyed the $1300+ payday. With regards to slabs, I am completely agnostic.
I don’t have any stickered coins at this juncture (sold out) so if buy any his stuff in future wb CACG unless priced insane. Do you think in foreign countries where US coins not a big deal they laughing like crazy at the holder / sticker arguments here?
@PhillyJoe said:
I have three common date, same year Morgan's. One is PCGS 64 green sticker, one is NGC 64 green, one is CACG 64. All are solid for the grade according to the experts. How will the market treat them? Should be the same, right?
Absolutely SHOULD be valued the same, but in the real world, not so much.
Steve
Which shows you the exact problem with the PCGS/CAC mentality and plastic and sticker obsession is unhealthy in general. It creates faux scarcity based on plastic and stickers. It seems very few actually pay attention to the shiny metal disk in the middle.
One of the most interesting threads on this forum is one from TDN where he open muses over the pricing of a proof trade dollar as it goes from NGC to PCGS with and without a sticker for the same coin. The question remains: At what point did it become dreck and at what point did it cease being dreck?
@PhillyJoe said:
I have three common date, same year Morgan's. One is PCGS 64 green sticker, one is NGC 64 green, one is CACG 64. All are solid for the grade according to the experts. How will the market treat them? Should be the same, right?
Absolutely SHOULD be valued the same, but in the real world, not so much.
Steve
Which shows you the exact problem with the PCGS/CAC mentality and plastic and sticker obsession is unhealthy in general. It creates faux scarcity based on plastic and stickers. It seems very few actually pay attention to the shiny metal disk in the middle.
One of the most interesting threads on this forum is one from TDN where he open muses over the pricing of a proof trade dollar as it goes from NGC to PCGS with and without a sticker for the same coin. The question remains: At what point did it become dreck and at what point did it cease being dreck?
Got a link?
I don’t have the link handy but this was probably 3-4 years ago if that helps anyone find it.
I happen to own an enormous number of gold stickered PCGS OGH coins many of which I submitted myself.
I never assumed that they were undergraded by more than 1 to 1 1/2 grades.
I enjoyed owning these special coins because I felt very comfortable leaving them to my heirs knowing no dealers or collectors would ever try to jawbone these coins down to an inferior grade.
Secondarily, the eventual increasing rarity factor of these gold stickered older slabs enjoys increasing interest from collectors and dealers alike.
It is a double play in my view… the older and scarcer PCGS as well as the older and scarcer NGC slab when combined with the gold sticker enjoys a nearly unique visual experience for the viewer.
It is most readily apparent in the gold stickered mint state $20 Saint in the black NGC slab.
I just came across this thread today, so my apologies for the late reaction. Thanks to all for the compliments. We are very happy to enjoy the support of this community. We won't always get everything right, but we will always listen, and we're open to suggestions.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
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I think I would have guessed 65 honestly. Definitely no less than 64+ but better pictures would help. Looks nice and clean with respect to abrasions but hard to judge luster in those pics.
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At what level? The gold sticker is ambiguous.
As usual, the award for the Solipsistic Post of the Day goes to...
wow thats pretty good, tomorrow i will set up my camera rig and try to get better pics, that was my phone after 5 cups of java so you know how that goes . it seems almost PL to me
Which shows you the exact problem with the PCGS/CAC mentality and plastic and sticker obsession is unhealthy in general. It creates faux scarcity based on plastic and stickers. It seems very few actually pay attention to the shiny metal disk in the middle.
One of the most interesting threads on this forum is one from TDN where he open muses over the pricing of a proof trade dollar as it goes from NGC to PCGS with and without a sticker for the same coin. The question remains: At what point did it become dreck and at what point did it cease being dreck?
The only definite implication is +1 green. So they either specify+1 if they want to get a cross and bean or they specify a +2 if they absolutely want/ need a +2.
They clearly did not specify a +2 which I think is what Dan is suggesting since they got a +1 and were allegedly expecting/wanting +2.
Kudos to the Greysheet for its empiric approach. While it may not please everyone, it is the realistic way and far more ethical than making it up as you go along while pretending to be disinterested.
I half agree with you, although I don't think it's "few" that pay attention to the coin.
The issue seems to me to be more a misunderstanding of price guides than coins and plastic. What seems to get lost is the value of a grade average as represented by a guide versus the market value of a specific coin. In theory, raw or in ANY plastic, including SEGS, the value of a given coin should be the same. In practice, the tendency is to see all coins in plastic of a certain grade to be equal.
I agree with you. I took a $200 SEGS DCAM early Franklin, dipped it and submitted it to PCGS where it came back the same grade first try. I enjoyed the $1300+ payday. With regards to slabs, I am completely agnostic.
Sounds like a good, common sense approach.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I don’t have any stickered coins at this juncture (sold out) so if buy any his stuff in future wb CACG unless priced insane. Do you think in foreign countries where US coins not a big deal they laughing like crazy at the holder / sticker arguments here?
Probably not as much as us laughing at them for cleaning the heck out of their coins with startling regularity.
Got a link?
Coin Photographer.
I don’t have the link handy but this was probably 3-4 years ago if that helps anyone find it.
I happen to own an enormous number of gold stickered PCGS OGH coins many of which I submitted myself.
I never assumed that they were undergraded by more than 1 to 1 1/2 grades.
I enjoyed owning these special coins because I felt very comfortable leaving them to my heirs knowing no dealers or collectors would ever try to jawbone these coins down to an inferior grade.
Secondarily, the eventual increasing rarity factor of these gold stickered older slabs enjoys increasing interest from collectors and dealers alike.
It is a double play in my view… the older and scarcer PCGS as well as the older and scarcer NGC slab when combined with the gold sticker enjoys a nearly unique visual experience for the viewer.
It is most readily apparent in the gold stickered mint state $20 Saint in the black NGC slab.
Interesting. Don’t have any gold stickered stuff however if did would take a swim in the upgrade seeking waters.
I just came across this thread today, so my apologies for the late reaction. Thanks to all for the compliments. We are very happy to enjoy the support of this community. We won't always get everything right, but we will always listen, and we're open to suggestions.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)