Byzantine Follis - value help please

JoesMaName

Any thoughts on what a decent price for this coin would be?

SimonW

Is it authentic?

JoesMaName

If I knew that with any certainty I would also know the value!
I was hoping not to taint the initial conversation by stating my real question - "Do you think this coin is counterfeit", though I was hoping it would be brought up organically. But now that the cat is out of the bag...

Do you think this coin is counterfeit?

I bought this coin on ebay via buyItNow several years ago, I'd been looking for a clean example for months and when I saw this for $700 jumped on it... And immediately regretted it. Within half a minute of purchase I reassessed and decided these coins never came out this perfect, it looked to good to be true. I contacted the seller (I had never done this before or since) and asked if I could cancel the purchase. To my amazement they were fine with it and all was well... Or was it?

Over the years I have seen slabbed examples that have one or more of the features I found questionable to the point where I've seen all of them in a reputable slab. But this example is still the only one that had ALL the questionable features.

I just stumbled on the picture again and decided to put the still nagging question to this August group: Did I dodge a $700 bullet? Or pass on a most amazing Byzantine Follis?

harasha

I have a decent size collection of folles, mostly from Maurice Tiberius, but none more than $300 and none look so perfect.
I also note that the folles is of Justinian, who is a very popular collectible; i.e. many imitations.
I am looking at a plate coin for this issue and your example appears to be new and improved.

JoesMaName

If this example had the excess metal trimmed away from the raised rim it would be a close-ish match especially the reverse. Image from NGC's site:

Although I just noticed an obverse detail above totally missing on the coin I walked away from, the dots under the crests of the wavy vertical line at chest left. I bet that is a damning omission.
I've mostly felt good about my call, but validation would be nice.

SimonW

I think it looks fake, personally, but I can’t tell you specifics because I don’t know the series well. Just a gut reaction the moment I saw it.

Greenstang

Just look at the face, it is not even close.

JoesMaName

@SimonW said:
I think it looks fake, personally, but I can’t tell you specifics because I don’t know the series well. Just a gut reaction the moment I saw it.

@Greenstang said:
Just look at the face, it is not even close.

I know what you both mean, but there is more doubt in my mind - The top has a pointer nose for sure but we all know that is easily attributable to lack of wear. Considering the variations I've seen due to the crude methods used in the fabrication of both dies and coins, the head is not implausible to me. The one thing that keeps me thinking fake is the absence of excess metal around the rim.

JoesMaName

Here is the NGC example, darkened and with a nose job and trimmed rims:

And the probable fake:

Not as big a stretch?

JoesMaName

The neck is definitely longer on the bottom coin.

SimonW

Send it in, see what they say.

JoesMaName

Would if I could, long gone.

291fifth

I know very little about that series but would have immediately thought "possible counterfeit". It just looks too good.

JoesMaName

interesting ebay auction....
https://ebay.com/itm/145057910204?hash=item21c6200dbc:g:8bAAAOSwhhxkSIiO&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0OqNXWbK1UDMGWL5kU826elLnFh%2FPu9FdQQQV%2BoOJ%2F%2BGOQbX%2FoRzcpTr8oyRfwGHDvPHZVrcYihoSOdkeND4nIqa2uYbcaGQxH8LUT8HwGthaQW1BLaCUVh02saXzW7vciliVMfVmcawv%2B5K0Yo8izERmjiQhauZe4YNk9qPZWExSkYJ565CjKOy4xfCTUDDr3%2FNSQ20yFVyqpymfgGwV8yvv7qQXXzZZ0w9Hy91J%2FKGTnEKQpFkxVwZEO3%2BW9UiWKnZEIYG5FYrcjGFsN8FBZs%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9q3ucOyYg

JoesMaName

Think I have my answer

SimonW

That does appear to be a very similar die

sellitstore

Looks like we have a match, obverse and reverse.

In light of this new evidence, I'd say genuine.

JoesMaName

@sellitstore said:
Looks like we have a match, obverse and reverse.

In light of this new evidence, I'd say genuine.

I saw the same picture, thought the same thing about the match, but came out with the opposite conclusion.
I think they are both counterfeit.
I get your logic though - but what makes me make the other call are the rims and strike. Sure the ebay coin appears worn but the strike was near perfect as are the rims on both, no excess metal like on 99% of byzantine Follies I've seen. To have the only perfect follis rims on two identical coins (except for wear) is too much of a coincidence for me to think they genuine.

JoesMaName

Ok - Now I'm back on the fence.
Below is the coin from the above ebay auction:

Though it appears more worn, it's pretty obvious it was struck with the same die pair as the coin in question:

After finding the ebay example I was leaning to them both being counterfeit.
But here is a third example also on ebay, while different, it has several of the questionable features, Smooth round rims (though not as well centered) a clean strike, long neck and similar portrait and this one is slabbed.

I give up! Guess I should have kept it and had it graded.

OldeTowneCoinShoppe

I own about thirty of these, and the OP appears fake to me.

lordmarcovan

Looks pretty sharp, but has a bit of that "too good to be true" quality to it. I'm mildly suspicious, but out of my depth here. I hope it turns out to be authentic.