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Recent Grades and Corner Wear

PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

I am only posting about this because I have noticed it at least a dozen times in the last several months. I’m talking about cards recently graded PSA 9 with very noticeable corner wear, often at multiple corners. I’m just wondering whether there has been some kind of philosophical or technical shift in grading standards that explains this. Here is an example, and I have seen many others just like this. Wear that rises to the level of chipping that shows the underlying gray card color. I would swear cards like this used to be PSA 7.

Comments

  • They only get a 7 if I submit them :) Apparently not others.

  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 605 ✭✭✭

    I'm struggling to understand some grades I received for some cards. It would be ideal to have a review step for the grade where we can back out, for a fee, if there is a big disagreement on the grade a card gets. 8 cards of mine that received a grade 8 would have been more easily digestible if I had a clue as to why they weren't a 10 or even a 9. I don't see a process change happening there but I do believe the multiple category grading, like some competitors do, would drastically minimize the puzzled feeling we may have and we could then see what the expert saw. A change like that wouldn't happen overnight but I am curious to know if those discussions are taking place. I think BGS would lose a little marketplace if their main competition offered a similar service.

    If nothing else, having a scoresheet along with the scanned images would be ideal to me. The less subjective it is then the easier it is to accept a lower grade than anticipated. Also, the scoresheet gives PSA insight into the history of the grading decision and any customer service rep should be able to respond to customers without any need to interrupt a grader.

    A good metric for a grading company to march towards, similar to a safety team celebrating consecutive days without an accident report, would be consecutive days each grader went without a dispute and compensate them for it. The best graders will rise up and the less than average graders will get the necessary coaching to hopefully improve.

    Metrics drive behavior. One of the best things I learned in life.

  • that looks like a bit more than I would expect on the upper left(when standing up) but it is scanned at like 10X normal size so I would think any 70's card might look like that

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2023 7:46PM

    @beachbumcollecting said:
    that looks like a bit more than I would expect on the upper left(when standing up) but it is scanned at like 10X normal size so I would think any 70's card might look like that

    No, PSA 10s, as well as the vast majority of 9s, would not show that kind of wear even under magnification. And it’s not 10x, not even 2x.

  • 82FootballWaxMemorys82FootballWaxMemorys Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    5th verse of Join Together by The Who

    Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    >

    A good metric for a grading company to march towards, similar to a safety team celebrating consecutive days without an accident report, would be consecutive days each grader went without a dispute and compensate them for it. The best graders will rise up and the less than average graders will get the necessary coaching to hopefully improve.

    Rewarding no disputes sounds like a recipe for overgrading.

  • beachbumcollectingbeachbumcollecting Posts: 461 ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2023 8:48PM

    not even 2X? put a card in front of your scan..... it takes almost 9 cards to cover your card. lol

    yes, that card looks like it has more wear that typical on a 9 but your scan that can't fit on my 23" monitor is over exaggerating it

  • HarnessracingHarnessracing Posts: 317 ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2023 11:01PM

    I just got my 1975s grades back today and wanted to commit suicide. They are just not consistent. I’ll post pics once they get here. You tell me if I’m nuts. Yet there are some large sellers that if you check certs 10 back and 10 forward all you see is 9,10,9,9,10,10 etc and when you get them you say what the f***!

  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 605 ✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:

    >

    A good metric for a grading company to march towards, similar to a safety team celebrating consecutive days without an accident report, would be consecutive days each grader went without a dispute and compensate them for it. The best graders will rise up and the less than average graders will get the necessary coaching to hopefully improve.

    Rewarding no disputes sounds like a recipe for overgrading.

    Good point. Metrics drive behavior and that seems like a very realistic outcome which doesn't have an easy solution. 🤔

    It's possible the card has been mishandled? Was it submitted in the same condition? What do the scanned images from PSA look like?

    Scanning software could possibly identify edges, corners, and centering to assist in a consistent evaluation for traditional cards. Staining, scratches, fading, and other surface issues is the non-trivial part. Die cut and modern parallels may also present challenges.

    I'd be curious if it fetches the same as another of the same grade and then get one you are looking for if it's for your personal collection.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @beachbumcollecting said:
    not even 2X? put a card in front of your scan..... it takes almost 9 cards to cover your card. lol

    yes, that card looks like it has more wear that typical on a 9 but your scan that can't fit on my 23" monitor is over exaggerating it

    On my iPad it is less than twice the size of a normal card. Not sure why it looks larger on a real computer….

  • BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Harnessracing said:
    I just got my 1975s grades back today and wanted to commit suicide. They are just not consistent. I’ll post pics once they get here. You tell me if I’m nuts. Yet there are some large sellers that if you check certs 10 back and 10 forward all you see is 9,10,9,9,10,10 etc and when you get them you say what the f***!

    I'm with you completely. Ever since they reopened the grades have been a disaster, but do seem to be getting slightly more legit recently for me (I do have a fairly large order of around 100 mid-70s FB in there now so we'll see). Everything I graded last year seems like a complete waste of money at this point.

    I have cards I bought graded at 9 that are worse than some I got back last year that were 6s and 7s.

    If they're depending on AI to grade their cards then their AI must have the intelligence of a Basset Hound.

  • RonSportscardsRonSportscards Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:
    I am only posting about this because I have noticed it at least a dozen times in the last several months. I’m talking about cards recently graded PSA 9 with very noticeable corner wear, often at multiple corners. I’m just wondering whether there has been some kind of philosophical or technical shift in grading standards that explains this. Here is an example, and I have seen many others just like this. Wear that rises to the level of chipping that shows the underlying gray card color. I would swear cards like this used to be PSA 7.

    You're calling it "corner wear". The corners are a bit fuzzy, but I don't think it from 'wear'. No indents, dings, or rubs.
    The corners seem complete. Maybe looking from the back gives a good indication, confirming it's not from 'wear'.

    The cut on the edge seems a bit rough, and the corners are just a continuation of it.
    OPCs with similar corners and worse edges can get 9s.
    I have cards I'm afraid to submit for fear of the grader not making the distinction between factory cut and corner wear.

    Maybe this card should be an 8. Maybe a .5 boost for excellent centering and not having any other issues.
    A generous half grade miss is not that bad. We've all seen worse.

    ....or the grader is from Baltimore.

  • 82FootballWaxMemorys82FootballWaxMemorys Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2023 11:31AM

    @JolleyWrencher said:

    @PaulMaul said:

    >

    A good metric for a grading company to march towards, similar to a safety team celebrating consecutive days without an accident report, would be consecutive days each grader went without a dispute and compensate them for it. The best graders will rise up and the less than average graders will get the necessary coaching to hopefully improve.

    Rewarding no disputes sounds like a recipe for overgrading.

    Good point. Metrics drive behavior and that seems like a very realistic outcome which doesn't have an easy solution. 🤔

    It's possible the card has been mishandled? Was it submitted in the same condition? What do the scanned images from PSA look like?

    Scanning software could possibly identify edges, corners, and centering to assist in a consistent evaluation for traditional cards. Staining, scratches, fading, and other surface issues is the non-trivial part. Die cut and modern parallels may also present challenges.

    I'd be curious if it fetches the same as another of the same grade and then get one you are looking for if it's for your personal collection.

    Good points as well - the thing is even if or rather when cards are graded mostly by "ai" they will still be subject to the mechanics of census medians maintenance. In fact median maintaining algorithms can then be built directly into the ai processes

    Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t personally believe this card looked this way when it was brand new. I know what you mean about rough cuts, but this doesn’t look like that to me.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭✭

    no, these should not be "9" corners. that is wear. for 9 & 10's, corners should hold up to scrutiny even under magnification.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Totally understand. Just saw the grades for my first Sub. Looked at the cards with both a cheap and much more expensive loop. Didn't expect a 10 but hoped.... mostly 8s and most lower. I really don't understand. And some were N5 - which I don't understand,, except they were in screw down holders :(

  • brad31brad31 Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Harnessracing said:
    I just got my 1975s grades back today and wanted to commit suicide. They are just not consistent. I’ll post pics once they get here. You tell me if I’m nuts. Yet there are some large sellers that if you check certs 10 back and 10 forward all you see is 9,10,9,9,10,10 etc and when you get them you say what the f***!

    If cards are submitted with a minimum grade of 9 then the certs would look like your example.

    70s cards have been graded with no consistency since the backlog. I hope to find some recently graded 7s and 8s that could be 9s at the National and buy the card not the holder.

  • HarnessracingHarnessracing Posts: 317 ✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2023 6:09AM

    Brad
    I would agree if there were cert number breaks. If a couple didn’t grade 9, the card still gets a certification number that shows no info. There are solid runs with no breaks.
    But…… I agree, the people grading 70s must be the same who grade new because they have no clue

  • ldfergldferg Posts: 6,739 ✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2023 6:20AM

    As a low volume self-submitter, I’m seeing just the opposite. Out of the 500+ vintage I’ve had graded in 2023, the majority have been 1 to 2 grades below my pregrade. It seems they are applying modern card criteria to the vintage cards.

    From the OPs example, those corners should not yield a 9 grade.



    Thanks,

    David (LD_Ferg)



    1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
  • sayheywyosayheywyo Posts: 443 ✭✭✭✭

    Got this '73 back a couple weeks ago. Came back as expected.... PSA 6

  • HarnessracingHarnessracing Posts: 317 ✭✭✭

    I’m a low volume submitter too but what I was saying is, “the low submitter “ doesn’t get the grades. Mine were like yours, 1 or 2 grades lower than expected

  • CrashingwavesCrashingwaves Posts: 171 ✭✭✭

    I am actually surprised they are the # 1 grading company considering they do not include sub grades... makes it seem more subjective.

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