Barry Bonds - The Last Syringe?

ndleo

I dunno if this has Last Dance potential, but I think it will be more interesting than the Jeter or Brady one.

Will we see a spike in Bonds cards?

https://sports.yahoo.com/hbo-announces-barry-bonds-documentary-in-production-205253798.html

JolleyWrencher

I hope so. Daryl Strawberry needs a video too.

coolstanley

I haven't watched HBO since they covered Wimbledon back in the 80's.

stwainfan

How many players have 7 MVP's?

craig44

very interesting. Sounds like Bonds himself will not be involved. I will watch for sure. I wonder if his cards will see a bump?

Cakes

I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

craig44

@Cakes said:
I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

Bonds was the most dominating offensive force in baseball history.

Cakes

@craig44 said:

@Cakes said:
I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

Bonds was the most dominating offensive force in baseball history.

I would have to say Ruth dominated the vintage era and Bonds dominated the modern era.

craig44

@Cakes said:

@craig44 said:

@Cakes said:
I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

Bonds was the most dominating offensive force in baseball history.

I would have to say Ruth dominated the vintage era and Bonds dominated the modern era.

fair. arguments can be made for both

Copyboy1

@craig44 said:

@Cakes said:
I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

Bonds was the most dominating offensive force in baseball history.

Being in SF during that time was unlike anything else. I would literally stop making dinner to go watch an at bat. Bars would quiet down when he stepped up to the plate. If you had to bet every at bat, you'd bet on a home run - it was that expected.

athleticsfan

@Copyboy1 said:

@craig44 said:

@Cakes said:
I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

Bonds was the most dominating offensive force in baseball history.

Being in SF during that time was unlike anything else. I would literally stop making dinner to go watch an at bat. Bars would quiet down when he stepped up to the plate. If you had to bet every at bat, you'd bet on a home run - it was that expected.

Agreed. He was either going to walk or hit a home run.

82FootballWaxMemorys

I prefer "Series i" over Barry

JolleyWrencher

McGwire, Sosa, Bonds...I think many were glued.

Hopefully the documentary doesn't backfire and his card prices fall.

balco758

Lived in the Bay those years too.

If my young sons were well behaved they got to see 2 Bonds ABs. Bad behavior day, had to go to bed after the 1st AB.

Kent stole his 8th MVP. Think Pendleton stole another.

Tabe

@balco758 said:
Lived in the Bay those years too.

If my young sons were well behaved they got to see 2 Bonds ABs. Bad behavior day, had to go to bed after the 1st AB.

Kent stole his 8th MVP. Think Pendleton stole another.

Pendleton for sure. Barry probably should have won in 2000 but Kent was very deserving and didn't steal that one.

coolstanley

No doubt Bonds won the MVP in 91 but got robbed.

craig44

@Copyboy1 said:

@craig44 said:

@Cakes said:
I hope Bonds cards spike. He didn't just hit homeruns, people forget he had 360 & 370 batting average seasons.

Bonds was the most dominating offensive force in baseball history.

Being in SF during that time was unlike anything else. I would literally stop making dinner to go watch an at bat. Bars would quiet down when he stepped up to the plate. If you had to bet every at bat, you'd bet on a home run - it was that expected.

I have never seen a player that some pitchers would just refuse to pitch to. Had he seen a more normal amount of pitches to hit, he would have hit over 100 HR's a few seasons I bet.

craig44

Bonds definitely got robbed of the 1991 MVP.

Copyboy1

@craig44 said:
I have never seen a player that some pitchers would just refuse to pitch to. Had he seen a more normal amount of pitches to hit, he would have hit over 100 HR's a few seasons I bet.

They'd intentionally walk him with the bases loaded!

RonSportscards

@craig44 said:
Bonds definitely got robbed of the 1991 MVP.

The REAL victims were the players that got robbed the years that Bonds won the MVP away from the non cheaters.

balco758

RonSport = Wrong.

JolleyWrencher

@balco758 said:
RonSport = Wrong.

Imagine getting runner up in the MVP and you find out the winner was cheating when you weren't...that's definitely a slap on the face.

RonSportscards is the furthest from being wrong.

I grew up with a glove in my hand. Played 2 leagues every year as a kid and wanted to play in college as a solid lefty with a 1.0 (perfect through 7 games) batting average before my freshman year of high school (summer of 1996). I wasn't fast but I had a lot of breaking action in my pitches and I was a hell of a first baseman. I had no interest in professional baseball after the 1994 strike and the PED use sealed the deal in later years.

I was well aware I wasn't going to be a professional although Ryan Sweeney, classmate, brought scouts to our games, it was great playing ball where I lived as a kid.

JolleyWrencher

I want to add that I was a huge Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Deion Sanders, and Bo Jackson fan, just to name a few. I knew every starting player of every team in baseball and basketball. Bonds is in my collection and was part of my first submission a couple months back.

I don't hate people. I dislike actions some people, including myself, make in life but many of us are learning as we go. The pressures everyone faces is unique and it's easy to say what you would do if you were in a person's situation. But our own world view, or call it relativity, shapes part of our decision making process and no two people have the same exact world view.

I know PEDs will always be used in some form in most sports and so you either accept it or not. It seemed obvious as the years went on before all the crackdowns. Maybe this is a stretch but if you are okay with PED use, while knowing many of the competition will not use it, then possibly you should be okay with transgenders in sports. And maybe you are and that's you, and that's A-okay with me. I would rather see an even playing field without corked bats, banging of barrels, PED use, sex/child scandals, and all the rest but athletes aren't always role models and I have to remind myself of that at times when I begin to like a player...Mikey Williams for example. Hope these talented individuals get some good mentors before they are remembered for one bad decision instead of all their achievements.

82FootballWaxMemorys

Never been to SF and own 0 Barry Bongs cards. Anyone is who is fan of that SF Giant era or has fiscal based interest in Bonds cards are inherently biased. Before you argue please do learn what actual bias is! Financial bias be it conscience or unconscious is one of the most powerful bias'

Without bias on my part I can honestly say I do not care if Bonds cards go up or down in value as I will never sell nor purchase one.

ndleo

The MVP runner up to Bonds during the SF years were Sammy Sosa, Albert Pujols (twice), and Adrian Beltre.

balco758

I have no financial bias/interest in Bonds. Steroids didn't get Bonds his HOF numbers. He had the numbers before leaving Pittsburgh.

82FootballWaxMemorys

@balco758 said:
I have no financial bias/interest in Bonds. Steroids didn't get Bonds his HOF numbers. He had the numbers before leaving Pittsburgh.

For only 7 years in Pittsburgh those numbers don't get him into the hall especially as an outfielder. If the point he was starting to become a great then yes, had he not roid'ed up his projected numbers would have been HOF worthy.

Copyboy1

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:

@balco758 said:
I have no financial bias/interest in Bonds. Steroids didn't get Bonds his HOF numbers. He had the numbers before leaving Pittsburgh.

For only 7 years in Pittsburgh those numbers don't get him into the hall especially as an outfielder. If the point he was starting to become a great then yes, had he not roid'ed up his projected numbers would have been HOF worthy.

If you continue out his Pittsburgh numbers for the remaining 15 years he played in SF, he'd still end up with 550 home runs, 1800 RBIs, and 3000 hits.

balco758

Bottom line for me is Barry didn't need steroids in order to make HOF. There are many players who used PEDs who are in the HOF. Or who will be soon.

I respect all different views.

82FootballWaxMemorys

@Copyboy1 said:

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:

@balco758 said:
I have no financial bias/interest in Bonds. Steroids didn't get Bonds his HOF numbers. He had the numbers before leaving Pittsburgh.

For only 7 years in Pittsburgh those numbers don't get him into the hall especially as an outfielder. If the point he was starting to become a great then yes, had he not roid'ed up his projected numbers would have been HOF worthy.

If you continue out his Pittsburgh numbers for the remaining 15 years he played in SF, he'd still end up with 550 home runs, 1800 RBIs, and 3000 hits.

Which is why I mentioned in my post:

"If the point he was starting to become a great then yes, had he not roid'ed up his projected numbers would have been HOF worthy."

82FootballWaxMemorys

@balco758 said:
I have no financial bias/interest in Bonds. Steroids didn't get Bonds his HOF numbers. He had the numbers before leaving Pittsburgh.

Not sure how you can have no Bias one way or another in Bonds when your forum name /ID is "Balco758" . 758 is number of Barry Bonds' HR's and BALCO=The Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative where Mr Bonds obtained PED's directly or indirectly.

ndleo

I do have a bias. He played during my peak baseball fan years. I enjoyed watching him and all of the PED players play. If he was the only one doing it, then I may have to get on my moral high horse and criticize him, but as we know now the PEDs were all over the game. We know some names who did them but not all.

I watched the Lance Armstrong 30 on 30. My big takeaway, besides Lance is a world class jerk that helped thousands of people with cancer, is that EVERY other rider of his era was on PEDs too. Even the teammates that ratted him out were using PEDs. In that context, Lance did indeed win his Tours "fairly".

Pot is basically legal now, I'm sure more drugs will follow. They run gambling ads all over sports broadcasts. Attitudes change over time. I've always found Bonds interesting and I'm looking forward to the documentary.

balco758

My Balco handle represents my time in the Bay Area and how in awe most of us were at his incredibly talents - including his defense. Even without PED's or his HR's, he was a top 3 player in his era. I am well aware of all things BALCO as I lived very close to the lab.

That said, I do not feel terribly biased. He is a complex, difficult guy, although I have friends who worked for the team and share that Kent was far more difficult for them to work with than Barry.

BTW I have 1 Bonds card worth $50, LOL

RonSportscards

@Copyboy1 said:

If you continue out his Pittsburgh numbers for the remaining 15 years he played in SF, he'd still end up with 550 home runs, 1800 RBIs, and 3000 hits.

How silly. Bonds would not have kept the pace of his peak years and certainly not for another 15 years without juice.
He was a very good player at best and his injuries would have cut his career short.

Take the peak years of many very good players and multiply their peak production times 3, and the Hall would be brimming over with these players.

RonSportscards

@ndleo said:
The MVP runner up to Bonds during the SF years were Sammy Sosa, Albert Pujols (twice), and Adrian Beltre.

And take away Sosa too.
And the runner up doesn't necessarily mean they would have won. So stripping Bonds from his MVPs, like they would do to Olympic medal winners caught cheating, would not necessarily be fair to the 3rd and 4th place MVP finishers.
Take the votes for Bonds, Sosa, etc. away, and those votes may have gone toward 3rd place Pujols instead of runner up Beltre, for example. It's conceivable that Pujols could have had 2, 3, maybe 4 addtional MVPs.
And not just for the history, legend, prestige or bragging rights, but what players missed out monetarily with contract bonuses for winning MVP.

coolstanley

I don't see any evidence of Bonds using steroids in 1991.> @RonSportscards said:

@Copyboy1 said:

If you continue out his Pittsburgh numbers for the remaining 15 years he played in SF, he'd still end up with 550 home runs, 1800 RBIs, and 3000 hits.

How silly. Bonds would not have kept the pace of his peak years and certainly not for another 15 years without juice.
He was a very good player at best and his injuries would have cut his career short.

Take the peak years of many very good players and multiply their peak production times 3, and the Hall would be brimming over with these players.

Won 2 MVP's and probably should've won 3 while Pittsburgh and you say he was very good? I would call that ELITE.

Cakes

@coolstanley said:
I don't see any evidence of Bonds using steroids in 1991.> @RonSportscards said:

@Copyboy1 said:

If you continue out his Pittsburgh numbers for the remaining 15 years he played in SF, he'd still end up with 550 home runs, 1800 RBIs, and 3000 hits.

How silly. Bonds would not have kept the pace of his peak years and certainly not for another 15 years without juice.
He was a very good player at best and his injuries would have cut his career short.

Take the peak years of many very good players and multiply their peak production times 3, and the Hall would be brimming over with these players.

Won 2 MVP's and probably should've won 3 while Pittsburgh and you say he was very good? I would call that ELITE.

Of course he was elite!

What percentage of players do we think took PED's in the 80's and 90's? 20%

craig44

to say Bonds was "very good" is a foolish statement.

RonSportscards

@coolstanley said:
I don't see any evidence of Bonds using steroids in 1991.> @RonSportscards said:

@Copyboy1 said:

If you continue out his Pittsburgh numbers for the remaining 15 years he played in SF, he'd still end up with 550 home runs, 1800 RBIs, and 3000 hits.

How silly. Bonds would not have kept the pace of his peak years and certainly not for another 15 years without juice.
He was a very good player at best and his injuries would have cut his career short.

Take the peak years of many very good players and multiply their peak production times 3, and the Hall would be brimming over with these players.

Won 2 MVP's and probably should've won 3 while Pittsburgh and you say he was very good? I would call that ELITE.

Winning MVPs is a poor measure of a player's greatness.
A lot of unjuiced players had great peak years and even won MVPs. Doesn't make them ELITE.

Using Bill James' Similarity Scores, do you see comparable ELITES on the list during Bonds' Pitt years and the first few reported unjuiced SF years? Bonds wasn't even the best Pirate in late 80s. Bobby Bonilla.

Most Similar by Ages

22 - Tom Brunansky (978.2), Jay Bruce, Curt Blefary
23 - Jay Bruce (959.2), Jack Clark, Tom Brunansky
24 - Jason Heyward (944.4), Tom Brunansky, Johnny Callison
25 - Jack Clark (948.2), Grady Sizemore, Johnny Callison
26 - Grady Sizemore (956.1), Jack Clark, Johnny Callison
27 - Bobby Bonds (938.2), Jack Clark, Carlos Beltran
28 - Bryce Harper (914.9), Juston Upton, Greg Luzinski
29 - Bryce Harper (923.3), Shawn Green, Mookie Betts
30 - Shawn Green (894.2), Mike Trout, Carlos Beltran

daltex

@balco758 said:
Bottom line for me is Barry didn't need steroids in order to make HOF. There are many players who used PEDs who are in the HOF. Or who will be soon.

I respect all different views.

Now that David Ortiz is in, all confirmed or suspected users who were vastly superior to Ortiz on the field should be in. There is just no good reason to leave Bonds, Clemens, or Rodriguez on the outside with Ortiz on the inside.

82FootballWaxMemorys

@daltex said:

@balco758 said:
Bottom line for me is Barry didn't need steroids in order to make HOF. There are many players who used PEDs who are in the HOF. Or who will be soon.

I respect all different views.

Now that David Ortiz is in, all confirmed or suspected users who were vastly superior to Ortiz on the field should be in. There is just no good reason to leave Bonds, Clemens, or Rodriguez on the outside with Ortiz on the inside.

I do wonder if his being targeted and shot was a factor in him being voted in. Meaning the voters pity outweighed the roid's?

Cakes

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:

@daltex said:

@balco758 said:
Bottom line for me is Barry didn't need steroids in order to make HOF. There are many players who used PEDs who are in the HOF. Or who will be soon.

I respect all different views.

Now that David Ortiz is in, all confirmed or suspected users who were vastly superior to Ortiz on the field should be in. There is just no good reason to leave Bonds, Clemens, or Rodriguez on the outside with Ortiz on the inside.

I do wonder if his being targeted and shot was a factor in him being voted in. Meaning the voters pity outweighed the roid's?

It could be the shooting but more importantly it's his good all around personality. He is so well liked it helped push him in. On the flip side the general consensus is that Bonds and Clemens can be prickly.

SportsModerator2

Great discussion people.

I have one request. Where concerned. Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

JolleyWrencher

@SportsModerator2 said:
Great discussion people.

I have one request. Where concerned. Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

Disagreeable, by definition, means unfriendly or unenjoyable.

I absolutely mean no disrespect and this isn't directed at you but it is directed at the multiple warnings from mods I have seen when water wasn't nearly boiling in my opinion.

I was going to post this afternoon about how much I enjoy being able to have a personality on the forum and how well I believe people have expressed opposing viewpoints in most threads I've read and especially this one.

It's going to be a boring future if the goal is a Pleasantville society. Sports thrive on banter and families/friends call each other names often as a way to rouse each other in good fun. An outsider may not understand and think somebody is offending the other.

I think we should have a self policing policy where we can report offensive banter. I like the real world where you give somebody the chance to walk it back by trying to work it out amongst themselves first. Often a great relationship is formed organically.

Mainly life happens...if my kid was killed and 2 days later I let emotion spill over into a post then so be it. Jailing a community member who makes contributions and had a bad day is over doing it by my standard if the person it was directed at isn't requesting backup.

Death threats, stalking, trolling/flaming, and some hate speech likely shouldn't be tolerated on a forum like this, and it's not, but I really think it's okay if somebody calls me a Fing moron for thinking "white" donruss highlight cards were intentional. It was moronic to make the assumption and I don't feel the need to have somebody intervene. If 2 people want to squabble on a public forum, without taking it to a death threat level, let them handle their business. The folks know this is public and some of the most viewed threads, which is good for business, are ones like this where disagreements happen and the line gets stepped on and nearly crossed.

A thread like this is sure to get emotions going because most of us were alive during it and it affected people in all kinds of ways.

Look at the way our participation award society is transitioning as some kids live in their parents basements until 25+ and social media regressed to remove Dislike buttons.

You can't have a winner without a loser.

Personally, being disagreeable is more of a habit for some than others and I don't think jailing a person for it would be as effective as talking through it. Likely a habitual disagreeable natured individual is most likely to leave if jailed when, given the opportunity, a chance to work through it could be a triple win (both parties and the company).

Maybe it's just my nature and the environment I grew up in but I think today's censorship is overboard and it's become one of my pet peeves. Basically everytime I see an unprovoked warning then I imagine the kid who told the teach I called him a booger and I graduated kindergarten over 30 years ago.

I don't mean to challenge the authority but I know there are others who enjoy a little spice in their food and I don't want the board to have members stop contributing because they were losing the ability to have a personality.

If we are striving for a polite and courteous only area then maybe having a separate adult space would be fun for those who want to drink, watch sports, and wake up the next day apologizing for the dumb comments. It's like marriage for some. 😄

Tabe

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:

I do wonder if his being targeted and shot was a factor in him being voted in. Meaning the voters pity outweighed the roid's?

Nah, it was the speech after the Marathon bombing and the playoff hits that got him in and got people to ignore the roids.

SportsModerator2

@JolleyWrencher said:

@SportsModerator2 said:
Great discussion people.

I have one request. Where concerned. Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

Hi Jolley

To disagree can mean: have or express a different opinion.

I'm not trying to squelch discussion - these types of topics can get out of hand very quickly and everyone has a different threshold of pain when told e.g. that their characterization is "foolish."

I'm sure most here know what I meant and didn't see it as a hinderance; I rarely jump in these conversations for the record.

Thanx for your input and yes - we don't want to sanitize our board to point of lacking character and fun.

Cakes

@SportsModerator2 said:

@JolleyWrencher said:

@SportsModerator2 said:
Great discussion people.

I have one request. Where concerned. Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

Hi Jolley

To disagree can mean: have or express a different opinion.

I'm not trying to squelch discussion - these types of topics can get out of hand very quickly and everyone has a different threshold of pain when told e.g. that their characterization is "foolish."

I'm sure most here know what I meant and didn't see it as a hinderance; I rarely jump in these conversations for the record.

Thanx for your input and yes - we don't want to sanitize our board to point of lacking character and fun.

Rarely is accurate. SportsMod would have made a good boxing referee, only jumping in very occasionally.