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Is This a 1913/2 Caballito Overdate?

7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited May 19, 2023 1:58PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

What say you?

Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
Well, just Love coins, period.

Comments

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Appears to be.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2023 3:21PM

    PS - look at the inner curvature of the bottom loop of the "3" on the larger picture as I have a blurry blowup in the first.

    NGC said it was a normal 1913.....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Over the years, more and more infinitesimal vestiges of the "2" have been allowed for the overdate, spurred on I believe by the Caballito book. Perhaps NGC has decided to draw a line in the sand?

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good knowledge & might learn something here. Thanks....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NGC only certifies one die variety as 3/2 without paid variety attribution (the variety with both ends of the 2 visible at either side below the 3). For the other die varieties you must pay for attribution and it will be recognized by the Shein number.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars PCGS attributes these as part of the regular service fee.

    I think the choice is clear (if it hadn’t already been).

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Its really not that big a deal but I should have gone there. Well, Baltimore show in a couple so will drop a couple at PC there no doubt.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:
    @7Jaguars PCGS attributes these as part of the regular service fee.

    I think the choice is clear (if it hadn’t already been).

    And let me add, it’s not particularly the extra $18 fee involved. It’s knowing that I need to pay the fee to get what I want done.

    If I was submitting 20 coins, do I have to search each one for a possible variety and indicate I want the variety service? Isn’t a bit much to ask the “average Joe” to do?

    For world coins, where most people aren’t expert in the details of every country/series, I think it is too much.

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:

    @pruebas said:
    @7Jaguars PCGS attributes these as part of the regular service fee.

    I think the choice is clear (if it hadn’t already been).

    And let me add, it’s not particularly the extra $18 fee involved. It’s knowing that I need to pay the fee to get what I want done.

    If I was submitting 20 coins, do I have to search each one for a possible variety and indicate I want the variety service? Isn’t a bit much to ask the “average Joe” to do?

    Yes, that is what you have to do at both TPGs, and frankly it should be your responsibility as the submitter to look for the minor varieties you want attributed on your coins. Major varieties do not require paid attribution, minor varieties do. That’s the standard for US and World at both services. PCGS isn’t going to attribute a minor DDO or RPD on a US coin either without it being requested and paid for.

    The TPGs cannot be expected to search for every possible major and minor variety on every single coin free of charge. If it’s too minor for the submitter to care enough to look for it or to pay for the service, then it’s too minor for the TPGs to look for it and attribute it for free. NGC considers this particular overdate to be a minor variety aside from the most visibly apparent die variety, so aside from that die variety it is a paid service.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2023 10:02AM

    Most people would agree that a 1913/2 Caballito is a major variety. It's in all the general catalogs and every Mexican collector knows it (unlike say, the 1916 "1s over inverted 1s" 50c variety, which by the way PCGS also attributes as part of standard service).

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2023 10:16AM

    As readers have probably gotten tired of, I have pointed out the variety [in other instances, not this coin] and even submitted supportive data from original auctions, catalogues, etc. and this has gone to no avail in many cases.
    I know what Pruebas is speaking of about this particular date/overdate and have seen some rather questionable acceptances as 13/2 overdates but this one with the bar across the lower loop and the bit of extra to the loop outside bottom would have made the cut (like that pun?)....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:
    This is the variety that is considered major enough:

    Yes, and I believe that part of the base of the "2" is visible at the bottom, inner loop of the "3" as well (not visible due to poor photos, but mentioned). I think I can even see the curved top of the "2" above the outer, top edge of the "3".

    So in order to get NGC to "do the right thing," @7Jaguars needs to resubmit which involves more forms, packing and shipping to NGC, more waiting, as well as paying grading a second time plus variety service and return shipping? Really???

    When I used NGC, they would occasionally flag a coin that "could benefit from conservation" and I could simply approve and get that done without all the additional hassle while the coin was still there. That seems like the way to handle things like this.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry I meant in the instances of other coins....(ie the tale of the 1866 3d at our host or 1853 groats ATS).

    On this same order they really blew the 1853 groats. Yikes. Now those I know a lot more about....

    I'm going to take all these back to the Baltimore show next month....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here’s Heritage MS64 1913/2 (NGC):

    Uh, what? I could be wrong but this specimen seems to have less than the OP coin.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:

    Uh, what? I could be wrong but this specimen seems to have less than the OP coin.

    Yeah, but they paid for it.

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2023 1:04AM

    @pruebas said:

    @Rexford said:
    This is the variety that is considered major enough:

    Yes, and I believe that part of the base of the "2" is visible at the bottom, inner loop of the "3" as well (not visible due to poor photos, but mentioned). I think I can even see the curved top of the "2" above the outer, top edge of the "3".

    So in order to get NGC to "do the right thing," @7Jaguars needs to resubmit which involves more forms, packing and shipping to NGC, more waiting, as well as paying grading a second time plus variety service and return shipping? Really???

    When I used NGC, they would occasionally flag a coin that "could benefit from conservation" and I could simply approve and get that done without all the additional hassle while the coin was still there. That seems like the way to handle things like this.

    The photos are blurry, but I do not see the leg under the right of the 3. That is key to it being the correct die variety. Regardless, you wouldn’t need to pay for grading a second time. At worst you would pay for a reholder service with attribution, which is cheaper than grading, but if it is the correct variety and NGC truly made a mistake with their attribution, then you should be able to contact customer service and have the service rendered free of charge. Lots of confident misinformation on your part!

    To your last point, that would again require the TPGs to check every single coin for minor varieties for free (that means every single minor DDO, DDR, RPM, RPD, etc, on every coin), and now you want them to contact customers as well for each of these coins? Do you also think turnaround times should be a decade long? Truly a mindboggling take.

    Also, the Peso in the Heritage auction above was sold in 2016. At that time the standards for attribution on these were different.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, bit of a cranky response at that & sorry you seem unable to read literally what has been laid out in front of you. Please cite instance of "confident misinformation".
    I have said, and again I guess you miss that part, that the Brit late predecimal series is one I likely know better than any Mexican series (which is why I tossed this one up for community perusal) & that I submitted DOCUMENTATION as to what, why and wherefore and DID NOT propose minor varietals; also I would hardly call any of what I ask free service & your response in the second to last paragraph quite frankly beyond the pale. And LOL, you must be joking at the "free of charge" bit.
    I do notice that you seem to have a habit of armchair sniping with a bit of extra acid thrown in as a measure which is certainly your issue but perhaps you might consider more gentlemanly discourse; your earlier comments were quite beneficial.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars it looks as if the Heritage coin you shared is between D1, D2, or D3. The picture is blurry enough that I cannot see if there is a 3/3/2 as expected for the varieties. The one in the first picture looks as if it is D4 or maybe D5. I am too blind to tell for sure, but the remains of the 2 on the left lower part of the 3 is a given.

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Hello fellow Caballito lovers. I don't view the message boards very often, but just discovered this thread. Its my opinion the variety posted by 7jaguars is closest to the D5. It has the lower left tick and a barely discernible curve at the top of the three. NGC should attribute it as its one of the four varieties they acknowledge. Its not the D4 as that clearly has the wide horizontal bar across the inner bottom of the 3 that is from the base of the 2.

    The Heritage coin is definitely the D1. It is a 3/3/2 identifiable by the lower right tick, the notch in the upper right corner of the three and the extra curve of metal at the top of the inner loop of the 9.

    NGC now attributes 4 varieties and the reason all 6 from my book Mexican Beauty are not shown is the belief that some are not as clear or may be various die stages of other more clearly visible varieties. There are probably a few more to discover yet, because with 1 Million coins authorized for 1912 and only 322,000 minted, its likely a number of die sets were prepared with the 1912 date and never used. Being perfectly serviceable some of these dies were adjusted for 1913. I have always suspected there were a handful updated with the numeral 3.

    Last year I was fortunate to acquire what Rick Ponterio refered to as the "full overdate" showing the ticks at both the lower left and right corners of the three, the curve at the top of the 3, and what may be a portion of the lower base of the 2 on the inside bottom curve of the three. It appears closest to the D5 but so far nothing else is really quite the same. I know of another with this exact variety, but its raw at the moment. I mentioned I was fortunate to acquire this coin because its the sole finest currently graded at MS66.

    You will have to re-submit to get the overdate designation. And I would submit with whatever images you have and an explanation to support it. Theres no question the coin is an overdate, but in the past as with the most common D1 variety, they have been hit or miss. Other collectors have told me they've done this and it worked out for many, including myself. What I would request from NGC though is that they don't charge a second fee if they ultimately agree to attribute the coin.

    The last time I weighed in here on overdates, NGC was not attributing varieties other than agreeing if it was a 3/2. I contacted Scott Schecter at NGC and it wasn't long before he made it happen. PCGS started attributing 3/2 varieties in 2015, NGC around 2019. With all grading however, grades are opinions, but overdates are usually pretty clear.

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    NGC started attributing 3/2 varieties in 2021, just to clarify for accuracy.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess I was close enough...

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tkdmaster said:
    Hello fellow Caballito lovers. I don't view the message boards very often, but just discovered this thread. Its my opinion the variety posted by 7jaguars is closest to the D5. It has the lower left tick and a barely discernible curve at the top of the three. NGC should attribute it as its one of the four varieties they acknowledge. Its not the D4 as that clearly has the wide horizontal bar across the inner bottom of the 3 that is from the base of the 2.

    The Heritage coin is definitely the D1. It is a 3/3/2 identifiable by the lower right tick, the notch in the upper right corner of the three and the extra curve of metal at the top of the inner loop of the 9.

    NGC now attributes 4 varieties and the reason all 6 from my book Mexican Beauty are not shown is the belief that some are not as clear or may be various die stages of other more clearly visible varieties. There are probably a few more to discover yet, because with 1 Million coins authorized for 1912 and only 322,000 minted, its likely a number of die sets were prepared with the 1912 date and never used. Being perfectly serviceable some of these dies were adjusted for 1913. I have always suspected there were a handful updated with the numeral 3.

    Last year I was fortunate to acquire what Rick Ponterio refered to as the "full overdate" showing the ticks at both the lower left and right corners of the three, the curve at the top of the 3, and what may be a portion of the lower base of the 2 on the inside bottom curve of the three. It appears closest to the D5 but so far nothing else is really quite the same. I know of another with this exact variety, but its raw at the moment. I mentioned I was fortunate to acquire this coin because its the sole finest currently graded at MS66.

    You will have to re-submit to get the overdate designation. And I would submit with whatever images you have and an explanation to support it. Theres no question the coin is an overdate, but in the past as with the most common D1 variety, they have been hit or miss. Other collectors have told me they've done this and it worked out for many, including myself. What I would request from NGC though is that they don't charge a second fee if they ultimately agree to attribute the coin.

    The last time I weighed in here on overdates, NGC was not attributing varieties other than agreeing if it was a 3/2. I contacted Scott Schecter at NGC and it wasn't long before he made it happen. PCGS started attributing 3/2 varieties in 2015, NGC around 2019. With all grading however, grades are opinions, but overdates are usually pretty clear.

    Kind Sir, thanks for your erudite explanation. My only question was in regarding the artifact across the bottom loop of the 3 in the second picture I posted (whole image), as at least to my eyes when blown up it looks as thought there is a line there?
    BTW, your coin is impressive. Mine on the other hand was a "spotter" off ebay.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    It could be the base of the bar, even though there appears to be a slight dip to it. But I've learned something since I published the book which is this. We know edge lettering was impressed on the coins prior to striking, having gone through a parallel bar roller. They were then struck in a smooth collar to preserve the lettering. Upon striking, the tiny space between collar and planchet was filled as the tons of pressure impressed the coins design. That tiny additional spread appears as slippage in the lenticular pattern around the outer face. If you look carefully, you will never see a coin that has 100% perfectly shaped "lenticals" as Pradeau called them. Except on patterns. There are always a few that have a slight curvature. This is from the high pressures they used to better strike up the details and as the planchet expanded that extra little bit to fill the collar. So after that explanation, its possible that the bar in the bottom of your 3's curve could be from the 2, even though it has that little center dip. I've had a similar one, but there is one rather scarce variety with a clear straight wide bar.

    This first image is basically the same as yours.
    The next image has the clearly defined lower bar.

    My last image shows what I call die slippage. It can appear elsewhere in the devices, but every Caballito I have ever seen, and that's a lot, has at least some evidence of slippage.

    Also, in looking at the 3/2 on my MS66, there is a similar but somewhat more pronounced curve at the inner bottom of the 3, much like on your coin. If you do re-submit, support it with printed images, and of coins already slabbed with a similar variety. If you can find them. Good luck.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like a task but will try it and see how it goes. I am going to the Baltimore show next weekend. You think NGC vs. hosts?

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
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