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Registry Set: clarification on price and rarity

johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 27, 2023 9:14AM in PCGS Set Registry Forum

Hello

I’ve read the forums and pcgs explanation for registry sets and how we accumulate points:

“ The Registry weighting is done by taking three things into account:

The overall rarity of the coin, i.e. the rarity in all grades
The rarity in the highest 2 or 3 grades
The price (because this is an indication of demand and importance to collectors)

How is the GPA calculated?
The Weighted Grade Point Average is the grade of each item registered in the set multiplied by the weight and then summed. That sum is divided by the total number of registered coin weights.

How is the Set Rating calculated?
The Set Rating is achieved by dividing the weighted grade sum by the total sum of the weights in the entire set.

How are bonus points and deductions calculated?
The calculation for bonuses or deductions is as follows:

(Grade + Bonus) x Weight
(Grade - Deduction) x Weight”
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/faq

Here’s my question so I don’t get this wrong and even after all my reading it’s still not clear, so apologies if this has been answered many times!

How do these coins stack up when it comes to registry and deciding which one I should put in the set outside of plugging in cert numbers and seeing what happens?

Same coin, same grade for the set just different years:
Rarity: 6.3; price $70k
Rarity: 8.7; price $33k

Comments

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Best to look at the blue set composition button to see the information you mentioned for your set and do the math.

    If you disagree with the set composition and bonus weightings, you can always provide your logic to the set registry, and they can evaluate if a change is warranted or not.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2023 2:20PM

    Thanks
    Given the example above though

    Do you chase the higher priced coin or the higher rarity coin. My understanding is each category is weighted evenly. Does this mean you could buy expensive high demand coins with lower rarities and have a higher rated set? You’d think price follows rarity but not always the case I’m finding.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2023 6:00PM

    Still mulling this over…

    Can anyone tell me which coin earns more points?

    1) mintage 3,000,000; pcgs value $5,000, grade MS65 15 with 9 higher. Rarity: 9.3 over 65.

    2) mintage 3,200; pcgs value $7,000, grade MS65 9 with 18 higher. Rarity 8.9 over 65.

    As you can see coin one costs less but has a higher rarity over MS65. Coin two costs more.

    ***If only considering point value, which coin gets the most points? And why….

    I’ve run into the scenario above more than once already (example is illustrative only).

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you open your set click on the "what if" tab
    Then you can put in whatever coin your thinking about adding and it will tell you how it affected your set
    I think this is what you're asking?

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2023 6:22PM

    The weightings are based on 2 rarity concepts, all of the grades and higher grades. This is loosely based on graded population reports, which are often quite different between grading services. These pops also overstate numbers because people regularly send in the same rare coin for grading more than once to get a better grade like a + grade. Those + grades did not even exist several years ago. Also, many do not turn in labels when cracking them out, so they do not get removed from the population reports. Also, you should factor in how many coins have not been graded yet that were minted.

    Price varies widely and, in many examples, prices do not reflect rarity proportionately. Do not waste your time trying to do some detailed math calculation, as the reality is that weightings are subjective. The same coin can have different weightings in different sets. Some sets have weightings from 1-10, some from 1 to 3, some sets all coins have the same weighting.

    The set composition shows what the registry has decided for weightings and bonuses or deductions at one point in time. Populations change over time. Prices change.

    My advice is to buy the coin that you like using your own criteria. In your example I would buy the cheaper coin with the higher rarity if I liked the way it looked. Easy decision.

    The registry numbers should not be taken as anything other than a temporary, subjective guideline, just like price guides.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the replies both of you.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2023 9:40PM

    What if worked perfectly
    This shows me I can get a more rare coin that is $35k less and it does not reduce my points

    I’m just experimenting to get the highest points on what I’ll call the smartest coins

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2023 10:00PM

    So my plan…still my plan is to build a 12 piece of GEM coins. Unfortunately the ranking system isn’t complex enough to give accurate rankings after playing around with it. I get the same points for a $10 Indian in MS65 regardless if it’s a 1932 ($6k) or 1933 (750k). That’s a huge flaw but that’s how it’s designed.

    The best I can do, no matter if I have $200k in the set or $1.5 million is 14th place unless I start buying MS65+ or up.

    Seems very odd / illogical that I could build a much more rare set of 65s vs common low rarity 66s and the 66 set would place higher irrespective of cost and total year rarity.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Case in point
    1908-D MS65 at $35k

    Gets me the same points as a common 1912 MS65 at less than half the price and much much lower rarity.

    Ranking this way takes away the allure of going after the higher rarity coins and makes you just buy a common 68 that likely costs less than much rarer 65s.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad that was of help
    I use "what if" ALL THE TIME when building my sets.
    Yes, it doesn't matter if you have a 1933 $20 gold or a 1927, still ranks the same points :)

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any idea why the system is setup to favor coins that are not as rare? I get cost but there are a lot of rare affordable coins that create better sets.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It doesn't favor any coin, it just shows you what coins are available for that slot and then the grades that are also available for that coin

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see it differently. If the system gives as many points for a 1912 Indian $5 as it does a 1908-D, it's favoring the less rare coin by giving the same gross points. See above.

    I would suggest PCGS give more points based on rarity of the coin as they should. Why should a set that costs arguable $300K (driven by rarity) have the same score as a set that I could acquire for $75K (not rare). Makes no sense.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is not the intent of the registry to have the highest priced coin in every slot, just to have "a" coin in the slot.
    Based on the "grade of the coin" and not the "price of the coin" determines the ranking of the set.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2023 8:18PM

    Let me try again
    A MS65 with a population of 9 and 6 higher, irrespective of price, should be valued from a points perspective much higher than a MS66 with 175 coins or higher. The problem is, they are not.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not sure you're acknowledging my issue here which is driven by rarity not garnering enough points in comparison to higher graded coins that are much less rare.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2023 10:51PM

    I'm talking type sets here
    I totally understand what you are wanting but that's not the way "these" registry sets work.
    I don't believe any registry sets work the way you want. It's just the way it is.
    I think the only way to get what you want is to have a registry for the particular coins and not a type set this way you can have each date and mintmark in the grade and value you choose

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok thanks, I’ll see if there are instructions online for this approach.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2023 9:24AM

    Type set is based on highest grades for a given type. Dates and prices do not matter.

    There is a search on the PCGS site. You can search for information like what you are asking about.

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/when-building-a-type-set-whats-better-rare-or-common-coins
    https://www.pcgs.com/news/building-a-20th-century-type-registry-set

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ve read the article. Unfortunately it misses the point that rare coins should score higher. Plain and simple. No idea why anyone would give the same points for a rare coin vs a common coin in same grade.

    Since PCGS published this article it tells me they have gotten this complaint often.

    Thanks for sharing.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 said:
    I’ve read the article. Unfortunately it misses the point that rare coins should score higher. Plain and simple. No idea why anyone would give the same points for a rare coin vs a common coin in same grade.

    Since PCGS published this article it tells me they have gotten this complaint often.

    Thanks for sharing.

    The reason is simple. A type set is specifically intended to allow more people to enjoy collecting one because they get to pick the dates they want to use with the highest grades. Rare and ultra expensive coins get plenty of extra points and weighting bonuses in regular sets. Nothing to complain about. It is a choice of which set you want to collect, not a flaw.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2023 12:16PM

    The 12 piece set gives no extra points for rarity or bonuses that I’ve seen. The max points for a GEM 65 set is 65 points. Unfortunately you could build a much less rare 66 set and beat an ultra rare 65 set which is why the system is flawed. If you look at my original post pcgs states in their rules rarity is an equally weighted factor and I’m telling you, it is not based on the images I’ve provided.

    Am I just missing something? Or is the system not working as explained?

  • david3142david3142 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2023 8:28PM

    @johnny010 said:
    The 12 piece set gives no extra points for rarity or bonuses that I’ve seen. The max points for a GEM 65 set is 65 points. Unfortunately you could build a much less rare 66 set and beat an ultra rare 65 set which is why the system is flawed. If you look at my original post pcgs states in their rules rarity is an equally weighted factor and I’m telling you, it is not based on the images I’ve provided.

    Am I just missing something? Or is the system not working as explained?

    Rarity is not a factor (within a type) for type sets, but it is for date/MM sets. It is generally assumed that most collectors will get common coins in the highest possible grade when building type sets so the registry reflects this.

    Toned coins often cost multiples of blast white ones but you don’t get extra registry points for beauty. There are ways to be efficient in spending money per registry points and ways to be inefficient. You should collect how you want but from a type perspective, date/MM (and the accompanied rarity) doesn’t matter. An MS66 1924 Saint is a better type coin than the 1933 (graded MS65). It’s way less rare and a lot cheaper but it’s a technically better coin.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @david3142 thank you for the reply.

    Can you please read this link from PCGS and tell me which set I can create that is weighted on rarity please? This is what has created confusion (on my part?) and why I started down a GEM set to begin with.

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/faq

  • david3142david3142 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I imagine for a type set different types will be given different weights (e.g. a Flowing Hair Dollar will be worth more than a Washington Quarter but all FH Dollars will be worth the same in a given grade as will the WQs). For a date/MM set the rarity will be specific to the date/MM.

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