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Milled Sixpence with Wavy Planchet

KSorboKSorbo Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
edited March 23, 2023 7:23PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I recently picked up this straight graded Elizabeth I milled sixpence and noticed that it has a wavy planchet. I attached some closeup photos that show the waviness toward the bottom of the obverse and top of the reverse. The NGC cert photo is also attached where the defect is less visible. Is this a mint made defect or is it PMD? If it’s PMD I’m curious why the coin would be straight graded.



Comments

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's just slightly bent.

    This is a fairly common feature of mediaeval and early modern coins. Most of them have been dug up after being buried in the ground, and the act of burial (plus the act of digging them up) can result in their getting bent. Earlier mediaeval coins were often deliberately bent around a piece of string as a secure means of carrying them, but this practice ceased long before this particular coin was struck.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,519 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's fully struck so unless the dies were wavy (they weren't ;) ) then it has to be PMD.

    Nice coin, though.

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,360 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, it looks like PMD to me, too, but there is no sign of other problems. Usually, if a coin is bent like this, it from being hit by something hard and there are scratches or nicks along with the bend. Maybe the absence of these caused a mistaken conclusion by NGC that this isn't PMD.

    Yes, a hammered coin is often slightly bent, as made, but milled ones shouldn't be so.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
  • KSorboKSorbo Posts: 102 ✭✭✭

    @sellitstore said:
    Yes, it looks like PMD to me, too, but there is no sign of other problems. Usually, if a coin is bent like this, it from being hit by something hard and there are scratches or nicks along with the bend. Maybe the absence of these caused a mistaken conclusion by NGC that this isn't PMD.

    Yes, a hammered coin is often slightly bent, as made, but milled ones shouldn't be so.

    So this coin should not have been given a straight grade by NGC? It seems that being bent is a serious problem that would affect value.

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2023 1:39PM

    It's PMD, but since that's par for the course on thin hammered silver coins of this era, as @Sapyx mentioned, I can only assume that NGC deemed the bend to be within "market acceptable" parameters for a straight grade.

    Should it affect the value? Maybe, if the potential buyers are picky. Otherwise, I think it could be lived with, if it doesn't bother you too much personally. The coin is otherwise quite handsome.


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  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would assume they "net-graded" it, taking the bend into consideration. In terms of wear alone, the coin looks considerably better than the VF30 grade would warrant.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 338 ✭✭✭

    Were these made on a roller press?

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @realeswatcher said:
    Were these made on a roller press?

    Nope, screw press. Roller dies impart a different sort of bend though.

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,360 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whatever is normal for the issue should be the standard. If these don't usually come with a bend, then it's damaged. Again, a milled coin shouldn't be bent but if the die were made so it didn't strike flat coins, that could be considered normal for the issue.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 346 ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2023 7:59AM

    If the TPGs had a consistent system, it wouldn't straight grade. But they don't know what to do with older coins as the Sheldon scale means nothing. These were made well before milled coins were the standard, so I assume whoever grades 'early modern' doesn't penalise coins with the odd bend, otherwise nothing would get graded.

    I'm not sure how you would determine if a bend was 'normal'. They didn't come with a bend out of the mint, but are often bent - as Sapyx said, most are found in the ground, so 'cleaned' and 'bent' means nothing on a slab. I think quite a lot of such damage was done in circulation, as many are very thin coins. That is more of a crease than a bend, and wouldn't ever be 'normal' even for hammered coins, although it's very common.

    Elizabeth I Milled Sixpence by Eloy Mestrelle, 1562

    Tower. Silver, 2.98g. Bust C, large rose behind head, mintmark star; ELIZABETH · D · G · ANG · FRA · ET · HIB · REGINA. Shield of arms of England and France on long cross fourchée, 1562 above; POSVI DEVM · AD IVTORE M · MEVM (S 2595).

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