Coin Photography Question

ProofCollection

I've been trying to get better at coin photography. I have a DSLR camera and a stand and a light box. I'm trying to get pictures that are more like the Trueview, shown below for reference. THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT COINS. The top two are mine, the bottom is the trueview. What do I need to do differently to get my photo clearer like the PCGS TV? Is it lighting? The camera is a Canon EOS T2i rebel with a macro lens.
Note: On the reverse of the lincolns on the steps, those are scratches on the slab.

Ringgy

Well, for starters in my perspective, the True View is probably not taken through a plastic slab, so that's one strike against you from getting what you want, if you could change that, you may be close to what you're looking for, I am not claiming to be an expert in any way shape or form, I just have been taking a lot of pictures of coins myself

ctf_error_coins

Get rid of the light box.

Use 2 direct flood lights instead.

lkenefic

I have essentially the same camera and setup. I've gotten the best results by using Manual settings. I'm still struggling with lighting... distance from the coin and angle... but I think I'm close.

A couple of things in comparing your results to the TV. You're trying to shoot pictures through plastic... when they take the TV, the coin is raw for the glamour shot. Additionally, they likely have different lighting schemes/angles etc to optimize that aspect of the image quickly. I can tilt a coin in my hand to find the angle where subtle toning or luster is apparent, but trying to recreate that has been elusive...

Best of luck!

TomB

The enormous advantage that True View has is that the coin is raw when the shots are acquired, which means that all those lighting angles that you can't use because of glare off the slab might be available to the photographers at PCGS. Other than that, the depth of field on your shots is much more shallow than the depth of field on the True View images and that is what you want to lengthen in order to get a more crisp image from top-to-bottom.

ctf_error_coins

A talented photographer could probably get a better photo thru the plastic then some of the tru-views out there

The_Dinosaur_Man

Two lamps, as stated above, with the correct light balance. Play with the angles and proximity of the lights and tie that into your exposure settings until you get the desired results.

Also don't skip out on trying new methods. You can teach yourself a lot more through experimentation.

skier07

You need to learn how to photoshop better.

ProofCollection

@ctf_error_coins said:
Get rid of the light box.

Use 2 direct flood lights instead.

Even for proof coins? It seems like you need dark surfaces surround the coin to get the nice dark fields.

ctf_error_coins

Your image has flat lighting from a soft box.

Direct (soft) lighting from flood lights will give more depth and give highlights to the subject matter of the coin.

CentSearcher

@ctf_error_coins said:
Your image has flat lighting from a soft box.

Direct (soft) lighting from flood lights will give more depth and give highlights to the subject matter of the coin.

Is there a certain bulb that you would recommend? I'm currently using a pair of Jansjos, and they've been great for circulation strike coins, but they're not working well for proofs and slab shots.

ctf_error_coins

@CentSearcher said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
Your image has flat lighting from a soft box.

Direct (soft) lighting from flood lights will give more depth and give highlights to the subject matter of the coin.

Is there a certain bulb that you would recommend? I'm currently using a pair of Jansjos, and they've been great for circulation strike coins, but they're not working well for proofs and slab shots.

I do not know what is on the market today. I bought my studio lights 40 years ago.

What I do have are quartz bulbs with 10 inch reflectors giving directional yet soft light.

renomedphys

Deep mirrored coins are difficult. Moderns even more so. I think the most difficult coins to shoot are dark brown mirrored proofs. Also, the slab can make lighting quite challenging, as it tends to be coplanar with the coin, compounding the difficulty of getting the surfaces lit up without blinding glare off the slab.

Things to consider:
1. You have two eyes, but the camera only has one. Using two light sources seems to be key to generating images that look normal
2. When you hold coins in your hand, the “normal” way to see it is with the light source coming from the top, so orient your lights accordingly.
3. White Balance is absolutely key to getting natural color. I usually use two 250 watt 3200K Eiko incandescent bulbs (from the camera shop) in ordinary clamp-on gooseneck lamp heads, and have incorporated a dimmer switch on each. Set your camera’s white balance to 3200K and turn the lights up bright enough that they blow out any stray light sources, like windows and room lights.
4. Working distance is important. That’s why I use a 200mm Macro lens instead of a 60mm. It gives you room to get the light in.
5. Scratchy slabs suck. Sometimes you can polish out scratches with headlight-renew paste, but for really incorrigible scratches, you can use a puddle of WD-40 right on the slab. Cover the coin and shoot right through it. You’ll be surprised how well it works.
6. And I almost forgot: Depth of Field is also important, so your aperture matters. I usually set mine so that no aspect of the slab is in focus. It’s a trade-off. Wider apertures give shallow DOF and let more light in, but may possibly make some areas of the coin out of focus. Plus, lenses have “sweet spots” where they are sharpest. Mine is sharpest around f8, but I use f5.6 for the most part to keep the slab out of focus and let in more light.

Here’s a photo of my rig. Notice that one of my lights is on a tripod. That’s because I couldn’t get the light close enough to the lens otherwise. Also, remember what I said about the 250 watt bulbs and the ordinary lamp heads? The bulbs on full will melt just about anything so DON’T BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!

BryceM

Great advice so far regarding lighting. Make sure your setup is absolutely solid. A rigid copy stand, tethered connection with remote shutter release, and mirror-lock all help with crisp images. Quick shutter speeds and lots of light help too. It also allows better depth of field.

ProofCollection

OK, I'm still waiting on another light to arrive but It's getting better, IMO... Any suggestions for further improvement are welcome. This is shot with ISO 100, F11, and shutter @ 13.

Mr_Spud

I’m a lazy coin photographer, I just use my iPhone. But if you want to get rid of slab scratches and glare, you can shoot through a couple of drops of oil on the slab. It also seems to even out the lighting because it’s a small invisible dome of oil over the coin that doesn’t reflect light into the camera. For example, here’s a shot through a slab with no oil for the 1st picture, and the 2nd picture has a few drops of oil right on the slab on top of the coin. I use optically clear compass oil.

Zoins

@Mr_Spud said:
I’m a lazy coin photographer, I just use my iPhone. But if you want to get rid of slab scratches and glare, you can shoot through a couple of drops of oil on the slab. It also seems to even out the lighting because it’s a small invisible dome of oil over the coin that doesn’t reflect light into the camera. For example, here’s a shot through a slab with no oil for the 1st picture, and the 2nd picture has a few drops of oil right on the slab on top of the coin. I use optically clear compass oil.

Amazing tip for using some oil! What a difference!

Mr_Spud

@Zoins said:

Amazing tip for using some oil! What a difference!

And here is a picture of a coin in a slab with a few drops of compass oil on it right over the coin. If you notice the reflection of the LED lights curving around the perimeter of the domed oil you can see what I mean when I say the oil drops keep glare off of the coin and even out the lighting some. If the oil wasn’t there there would be 2 rows of LED lights reflecting right on the edges of the coin itself but instead it curves around the periphery of the oil dome. The oil makes the reflection from the lights bend around the coin so the coin doesn’t get any glare and the coin is as evenly well lit as it can be

keyman64

As others have indicated, you need floods for proofs, especially if you have toned proofs.

ProofCollection

I have two floods now, but they are LED. It's better but it still seems like there's a lot of glare. I'm not sure what to adjust. The second photo was taken with 1/15, F25, and ISO400.

ProofCollection

@renomedphys said:
Deep mirrored coins are difficult. Moderns even more so. I think the most difficult coins to shoot are dark brown mirrored proofs. Also, the slab can make lighting quite challenging, as it tends to be coplanar with the coin, compounding the difficulty of getting the surfaces lit up without blinding glare off the slab.

Things to consider:
1. You have two eyes, but the camera only has one. Using two light sources seems to be key to generating images that look normal
2. When you hold coins in your hand, the “normal” way to see it is with the light source coming from the top, so orient your lights accordingly.
3. White Balance is absolutely key to getting natural color. I usually use two 250 watt 3200K Eiko incandescent bulbs (from the camera shop) in ordinary clamp-on gooseneck lamp heads, and have incorporated a dimmer switch on each. Set your camera’s white balance to 3200K and turn the lights up bright enough that they blow out any stray light sources, like windows and room lights.
4. Working distance is important. That’s why I use a 200mm Macro lens instead of a 60mm. It gives you room to get the light in.
5. Scratchy slabs suck. Sometimes you can polish out scratches with headlight-renew paste, but for really incorrigible scratches, you can use a puddle of WD-40 right on the slab. Cover the coin and shoot right through it. You’ll be surprised how well it works.
6. And I almost forgot: Depth of Field is also important, so your aperture matters. I usually set mine so that no aspect of the slab is in focus. It’s a trade-off. Wider apertures give shallow DOF and let more light in, but may possibly make some areas of the coin out of focus. Plus, lenses have “sweet spots” where they are sharpest. Mine is sharpest around f8, but I use f5.6 for the most part to keep the slab out of focus and let in more light.

Here’s a photo of my rig. Notice that one of my lights is on a tripod. That’s because I couldn’t get the light close enough to the lens otherwise. Also, remember what I said about the 250 watt bulbs and the ordinary lamp heads? The bulbs on full will melt just about anything so DON’T BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!

So I've tried to duplicate your setup. My question is - how do you mitigate the glare caused by the flood light? In your pictures the light is nice and evenly distributed, but in mine, it causes a glare on the side of the coin the light is coming from.

messydesk

Late to this party. The first thing you'd need to do to take pictures like TV is crack the coin out of the holder. I assume that's a non-starter, so concentrate instead on just taking good pictures.

Light boxes are usually useless for individual coins. Luster and detail react to subtle repositioning of lights. Your light-box picture isn't bad, but the detail is flat.

For cameo proofs, you want lights a little lower than for most other coins so that your fields stay black. You want some of the light shining at Lincoln's forehead from about 1-2:00 so that the face looks natural. The other light somewhere on the other side of the coin to make the lighting even and bring out other details. Bulbs that are cool to the touch make it easier to make fine adjustments without burning yourself.

ProofCollection

@messydesk said:
Late to this party. The first thing you'd need to do to take pictures like TV is crack the coin out of the holder. I assume that's a non-starter, so concentrate instead on just taking good pictures.

Light boxes are usually useless for individual coins. Luster and detail react to subtle repositioning of lights. Your light-box picture isn't bad, but the detail is flat.

For cameo proofs, you want lights a little lower than for most other coins so that your fields stay black. You want some of the light shining at Lincoln's forehead from about 1-2:00 so that the face looks natural. The other light somewhere on the other side of the coin to make the lighting even and bring out other details. Bulbs that are cool to the touch make it easier to make fine adjustments without burning yourself.

Thanks, but the problem I'm having is that there is too much glare from the light on the coin's surfaces where the rest of the coin looks great but the president's forehead is a big white ball. Is the solution a light diffuser? That's why I was asking renomedphys how he handles that in his photos, because his photos are great.

The_Dinosaur_Man

It isn't possible to eliminate glare from an initial, unedited photo. You can do some post-processing with the right program to get the desired effect, just so long as you don't overdo the adjustments and create something that does not accurately represent the coin.

Below is a nicely toned Franklin in an NGC holder. Capturing the color used to be an impossible task. The first two photos were done with a "normal" setup.

messydesk

@ProofCollection said:

@messydesk said:
Late to this party. The first thing you'd need to do to take pictures like TV is crack the coin out of the holder. I assume that's a non-starter, so concentrate instead on just taking good pictures.

Light boxes are usually useless for individual coins. Luster and detail react to subtle repositioning of lights. Your light-box picture isn't bad, but the detail is flat.

For cameo proofs, you want lights a little lower than for most other coins so that your fields stay black. You want some of the light shining at Lincoln's forehead from about 1-2:00 so that the face looks natural. The other light somewhere on the other side of the coin to make the lighting even and bring out other details. Bulbs that are cool to the touch make it easier to make fine adjustments without burning yourself.

Thanks, but the problem I'm having is that there is too much glare from the light on the coin's surfaces where the rest of the coin looks great but the president's forehead is a big white ball. Is the solution a light diffuser? That's why I was asking renomedphys how he handles that in his photos, because his photos are great.

Diffuse the light with a tissue.

braddick

Here is your photo with a bit of processing.

Perhaps it helps with a touch of editing.

AUandAG

My brother is a photographer (for a living) and he suggested that I back off and then crop to get a better depth of the field. I'm still learning however, so don't count on my advice.
bob

ProofCollection

@AUandAG said:
My brother is a photographer (for a living) and he suggested that I back off and then crop to get a better depth of the field. I'm still learning however, so don't count on my advice.
bob

A little blurry there on the left side behind Lincoln's collar.