Local card shows and “book value” sellers.
Geoff76
Posts: 163 ✭✭✭
Over the last year or so, I’ve started taking my son to a variety of local card shows. As someone who’s focused more on 1989-older cards, I’m usually on the hunt for some older cards in good condition that could be worth sending to PSA. With that in mind, I’m always struck by the number of sellers who won’t budge because “book” value says “x” while the card wouldn’t grade above a PSA 4-5, and those sales say “y.”
It’s as if some tables are speaking English while others are speaking Arabic. I know that PSA isn’t the be all, end all of value but the disparity is headscratching. I tried to buy a nice Terry Bradshaw rookie a few weeks ago for $300 or so (wouldn’t grade above a PSA 5 or 6, which sells for no more than $450) and the guy held firm at $600 because that’s what the “book” said it was worth. I also see a lot of sellers with dual prices - “book” on top and seller price below it.
Comments
I enjoy going to the occasional show just to check things out as usually cards are priced way above what I would pay on eBay. Dealers have table and travel expenses so I understand but a lot of times I'll find something interesting and unusual at a show and then end up purchasing one on eBay for less. I still enjoy the browsing at shows.
In the 80’s I remember sellers going by beckett book value for sales (looking back I’d buy every vintage card I could lol) but now with internet auction price it’s useless
One of my pet peeves is when they want PSA prices for a raw card. If you want graded card prices, then get it graded!
I actually overheard one seller say “I don’t send anything to PSA, I let other people do that.” Not surprisingly, he’s a “book” guy that expects premium PSA-graded value for his ungraded cards.
So what? Some people will always have prices (buy or sell) that are completely unrealistic. PSA slows that down a little, and for the less competent graders, because it's harder to say that my Brett rookie with a one inch crease is NM but I'm offering it for $50 off Beckett when it sits in a four holder, but PSA just hates this card for some reason.
People have a right to ask whatever stupid price they want for the cards they want, and offer whatever stupid prices they want when they try to purchase. Someone who pays half of retail and sells for twice retail isn't going to have a ton of turnover in his inventory. Either he has a really great eye, or his cards will sit there show after show and month after month, and there is really nothing wrong with that. But you shouldn't bother wasting your time or your money trying to get a card for $300 that the seller thinks is worth $600. Even if the seller is willing to come down, do you really want to deal with someone whose business model is to prey on the unaware?
Daltex - the point of my post was to seek information from others on why there is such a discrepancy. Obviously people can ask for stupid, unrealistic prices for their cards, and interested buyers like myself can walk away from said stupid, unrealistic prices. But as addictedtoebay said, I’m trying to understand why “book” is still a guidepost in an online auction/grading era.
But that's exactly the point. There are dealers who overpay for cards who are determined not to lose money, but who have already lost money and are unwilling to realize it, or rather to admit his mistake. There are dealers who are looking for suckers. Obviously "book" is still a guidepost, but whatever "book" they're using isn't. Your "book" is the "book" of completed auctions. It's a better book than whatever these clowns are using. If that dealer were willing to take $300 for that Bradshaw, then it wouldn't be around for you and the next five hundred people to look at.
Bottom line is that Beckett, or whatever book they're using, isn't a guidepost, or at least a reliable guidepost. Clowns who like to set up at shows or online who don't feel a need to have turnover don't need to care.
If the guys at the booths use online prices then they would sell online is my guess and many probably do. Maybe it's their "Buy it Now" price with zero shipping or tax price which likely is negotiable.
If the book values are inflated and they drop their values to completed auction prices then auction prices would in-turn fall below book. It's not often you consistently find a card selling for over book value. Once that happens then the book value should increase accordingly.
That doesn't make sense to you?
Let's take a 1972 Topps #79 Carlton Fisk for example. You need a starting point because you can't say that it's worth fruit or rocks, so someone came up with a guide that says in NM condition this card has a book value of $100. In a perfect world there would be several columns in that book for that card. One for NM, one for EX-MT, one for EX, etc....but it's a skinny book, so they just list the NM price.
Now if I'm a seller, and I have a copy of that card for sale, but mine is in VG-EX condition, surely I can't ask anyone to give me $100 for it. Well I can, but no one will. So I price it at $30 because I feel that a VG-EX card is worth about 30% of the NM price. Now if I just slap a $30 sticker on the card people might say "$30? are you crazy?", so instead I put a sticker that shows what the NM price for the card is, and what I am asking for it underneath.
In the end I still may be crazy, but at least the customer knows how I got there.
I'm so much more comfortable buying via ebay or auctions that I have no patience for even sparring with dealers at shows...I am much more inclined to merely converse about sports and I rarely even mention a particular card but in passing I may ask a price only to hear a ludicrous ask ~ for me shows are about spectacle and chatting other collectors up and not necessarily buying cards .... I would much rather let a hammer price declare my future.
I'm tired of hearing the "Somebody has to pay for the table" excuse for dealers charging exorbitant prices. If dealers aren't acquiring their stock at reasonable enough prices to make a profit and pay for their table at a show, that's not my problem.
I'm not going to go paying graded prices for raw cards, or paying a PSA 8 price for a PSA 5 card just because I'm at a convention. The prices I see at most tables are beyond ridiculous.
I remember last year I was looking for a Four Horsemen 1955 Topps All American. Any that I came across, the dealers wanted PSA 4 or 5 prices on raw cards that looked like they would be lucky to grade higher than a 2. One guy actually got indignant with me because I wasn't interested in his card that had rough edges, bad corners and some small creases and still wanted $450 for the card. I was seeing PSA 5 or 6 cards sell for that price on the eBay sold listings. I was like "Why would I buy an ungraded card in this condition when I could literally go on eBay right now and get a graded one in much better shape for the same price?"
I mainly go to these conventions for getting autographs and submitting cards for grading/autograph authentication, so looking around at the cards and memorabilia for sale is just an added perk of attending the convention, but most of the stuff is just really overpriced.
I agree with Daltex's thought that using ebay comps or 130point is just another type of book value. I do think that is a much
better "book value" than using Beckett. At least more accurate. My experience at local shows has been different. I hardly ever see a Beckett, what i do see is hundreds of people frantically checking sold ebay listings at tables.
People are allowed, of course, to set whatever prices they see fit. It is all a matter of how fast you want to turn over your stock. When I set up I use 130point mostly. I will start at those prices and usually negotiate down. I will not go lower than ebay/paypal fees, otherwise, i would skip the expense and hassle of bringing a ton of stuff to a show and just sell on ebay. I normally will try to split the difference for me and the buyer on seller fees. I make more money, and the buyer gets a little better deal than online and will not have to pay shipping or wait for the item to come in the mail.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What I am going to type is about vintage cards only.
It's great if buyers want to arm themselves with the "information" eBay sales provides, but it's just not possible for dealers to stop and look up all completed sales on eBay and then try to see which ones are legit and which ones are bogus each time a customer wants to buy a card.
I put information in quotes because, at least with regard to vintage cards, not all NM, EX-MT, EX etc... cards are created equal (graded or raw). Don't show me an poorly centered EX-MT 1972 #79 Carlton Fisk with sharp corners that ended at $18.46 and tell me that my dead centered 1972 #79 Carlton Fisk with slight touches to the corners should sell for $18.46 too.
When a seller has multiple potential buyers there just isn't enough time to do all that. Some of the older dealers probably couldn't do it if it was only one customer.
I don't think anyone is saying that, but if we assume that 24 of these have sold on eBay in the past four months for between $27 and $90, then a) we can assume that PSA's price guide value of $50 is reasonable and b) that any clown pointing to a "book value" of $150, or $12 if he's buying, is being, how shall I say, disingenuous. Furthermore, anyone who says that "This card went for $15-16 in two Sirius Auctions in 2015-6, so there is no way you should be asking $30 for it is nuts even if he has a price guide quoting that price and the dealer's example is not an especially strong one.
But of course this card is one that, clearly, trades all the time and therefore has a well-known, or knowable, range. If you take the same card in a 9 which still sold 18 times last year between $1300 and $2400 and has a PSA "value" of $2000, you'd be wise to be more suspicious and make sure you get a high end 9 for the 2000.
For sake of comparison, here is the $2400 card (Probstein)
And the $1300 (actually $1284.12) (Mile High)
So if no one is saying that the seller should check eBay completed sales for each customer that wants to buy a card, and the "book value" is believed to be a joke, what should the seller do at that very moment? Take the customer's word about recent sales? Cant the customer at least say "scout's honor" so the seller knows that he's not lying?
Edited to add: For reference I am talking about in the moment at a card show.
A seller is free to ask for whatever price they want, and a buyer is free to offer whatever price they want. Sometimes you meet, sometimes you don't. It's not personal. It's just (sometimes very bad) business.
Yes, sellers are free to ask whatever they want. But I stopped going to shows because I didn't want to pay $15-$25 to get into a show where every dealer was asking ridiculous prices (or simply didn't have any cards I was interested in).
If a show was free entry, I wouldn't get mad that everyone had such high prices. I'd just leave.
No doubt. I always think the shows will be a better place to find deals, and it seems I'm always disappointed.
Funny thing about "book", when I tried to use it, dealers would always say "book is wrong on that card". 😂
How did this card pass min size requirement?
Looks trimmed. Doesn't fill the space in the holder.
Haven't been to a show in over 15 yrs. Just got too expensive. Almost impossible to find decent deals.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
On the Fisk/Cooper rookie, I actually think it is oversized. I believe that is the holder for 52-56 Topps.
Matt
or maybe you're just cheap !
Lol.. kidding
Just hang around until someone stops by to sell a card. Those guys move off book real quick.