@PillarDollarCollector said:
Puck drop in 15 minutes versus Boston will not be a easy game for Edmonton. Boston is insane this year in each and every game.
@spacehayduke said:
Oil 3, Beantown 2, but alas, no points from McD............................. I'll take it tho'.
Will be hard to beat Boston in a 7 game series in the playoffs hope if it comes down to it Edmonton prevails.
Teams can go cold. Also Beantown teams sometimes have a tendency to choke in championships - '86 world series as an example, so you just never know................... But it is the nature of sports that when the pressure gets high, some people crumble up and do things poorly and we don't know what the psyche of this team is, nor the Oil for that matter, nor any other team that will be in the playoffs. We just know that there are alot of good and competitive teams this year so we will see, that is why they play.
@spacehayduke said:
Hard to compare, NHL was a more open game back then - goalies having smaller equipment for keeping pucks out of the net, D's were not closing down the ice the way they do now as their game has improved in this way. I never watched Lemiux much, but Gretzky to me seemed to have very quick hands and reaction time, good speed and skating, and was always in the right place - played smart and hence got the opportunities with his skill set to be the best. McDavid OTH, is fast, lightning fast on skates like no other, and can just put the puck on a dime for accuracy, and has tremendous control of his body and the handling the puck in and out of traffic - to watch him is simply amazing. So in that regard, both Gretz and McD are elite but not the same player, and played in different times.
Don't take my word for it, read what the experts and his co-players say about McD. The consensus seems to be that he is the best of his generation. It seems he does something truly great almost every game.
It was actually a more closed off game back then. The Goalie equipment is much smaller now which makes it more offensive, the crease is much smaller now, the two line pass is legal, goalies arent allowed to play pucks in the corner, the hitting and goons are mostly a thing of the past, the trap game the Devils made famous has basically been eliminated etc. All of the rule changes have been with the goal of more offense.
McD is a stud for sure. It just seems a lot of people really dont appreciate just how good Gretzky was. Crosby and Ovi are the closest to matching him. It does need to be considered that Wayne played in a much more violent restricted offensive era
If you go back 20 years, the game was far less open than now. If you go back 40 years, it was far MORE open, combined with bad goaltending.
To my eyes, McDavid is the best forward since Super Mario. And easily a better skater - by a mile - over Gretzky & Mario.
@spacehayduke said:
Keep in mind tho' the talent surrounding Gretz when he was Oil - Mess, Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, Lowe, and on and on. It was mind boggling to watch, I am not sure McD has quite as much talent in the team around him. I never saw a team that could be bored to tears in the first and second periods then decide to win a game and score 5 goals in the 3rd, but that was the Oil back them, that good.
Mcsorley trying to commit murder on the ice was one of the most wild moments in sports history. The Oilers team was stacked no doubt about that, given all the assists Wayne had though part of those other guys success was because of him. If he was a puck hog like Ovi he probably could have had another couple hundred goals
@spacehayduke said:
Hard to compare, NHL was a more open game back then - goalies having smaller equipment for keeping pucks out of the net, D's were not closing down the ice the way they do now as their game has improved in this way. I never watched Lemiux much, but Gretzky to me seemed to have very quick hands and reaction time, good speed and skating, and was always in the right place - played smart and hence got the opportunities with his skill set to be the best. McDavid OTH, is fast, lightning fast on skates like no other, and can just put the puck on a dime for accuracy, and has tremendous control of his body and the handling the puck in and out of traffic - to watch him is simply amazing. So in that regard, both Gretz and McD are elite but not the same player, and played in different times.
Don't take my word for it, read what the experts and his co-players say about McD. The consensus seems to be that he is the best of his generation. It seems he does something truly great almost every game.
It was actually a more closed off game back then. The Goalie equipment is much smaller now which makes it more offensive, the crease is much smaller now, the two line pass is legal, goalies arent allowed to play pucks in the corner, the hitting and goons are mostly a thing of the past, the trap game the Devils made famous has basically been eliminated etc. All of the rule changes have been with the goal of more offense.
McD is a stud for sure. It just seems a lot of people really dont appreciate just how good Gretzky was. Crosby and Ovi are the closest to matching him. It does need to be considered that Wayne played in a much more violent restricted offensive era
If you go back 20 years, the game was far less open than now. If you go back 40 years, it was far MORE open, combined with bad goaltending.
To my eyes, McDavid is the best forward since Super Mario. And easily a better skater - by a mile - over Gretzky & Mario.
Again though if Gretzky had the modern training of McD he would have been at that level. Its all relative to who is the best with what they have in their generation
@craig44 said:
I know that comparing players across decades can be a tricky exercise, but how does Connor compare to the greatest ever? I am mostly a baseball/football guy, but it seems conner is climbing the ranks. Is he considered as good as Crosby? Lemieux? Gretzky? Could he be better? I know scoring is down from the 80's, so he will never match Gretzky's raw output, but how are his analytics compared to the all time greats?
Crosby is basically the ultimate grinder type. He almost plays a power forward game, without actually being a power forward. He's not the most skilled player in any offensive or defensive category, even in his prime, other than playing on his backhand. He prefers to play on that side. That's why left wingers tend to thrive playing with Crosby whereas RW guys like Phil Kessel who was brought in to be a sniper for him had to be bumped to Malkin's line. Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis, Jake Guentzel, Bryan Rust etc...all guys who rode left-shotgun with Sid and all fared better than the crop of RWers than Pitt ran out there. Of Gretzky, Lemieux and McJesus, Crosby is the best defender of that lot. He's the only one who is/was above average in his own end.
For me, Crosby is a better version of Joe Pavelski. Like Little Joe, where Sid differs from the other 3 is he scores the majority of his goals a couple feet from the goal, usually on shot-tips, redirections, rebounds etc. He's not some clever vapor-trail skater, deking guys out of a shooting lane and busting it by goalers. He's often playing with his back to the net and redirecting shots from the point and paddling home seam/slap passes. He and Pavelski score the majority of their goals in that manner.
He's also the gym nut of that sect. Mike Rupp, who now works for NHL Network, told a story about how he broke Sid's weight room record in some weighted medicine ball nonsense, and when Rupp was in the trainers room afterwards, Sid rolls in and says, "hey, heard you topped my mark", then sulked away, headed to the weight room and for 4 hours didn't leave until he bested said mark. Should also note that Mike Rupp is 6'6 230 ish whereas Sid is 5'11. So Sid is that guy. Ultra competitive nutjob.
Lemieux played at 6'3/6'4 & 230. Yet was the better skater than Crosby and 99, and of the four, had the better wrist shot. Combo of speed, power, and despite being that size, was really elusive. Plus Lemieux at least played half of his career in the slog/trap era so you don't have to do any magic-twisting of numbers like you do for Gretzky to see how he'd fare in an era where forwards actually had to play some defense. Lemieux was more talented than 99 as a whole. Not the passer/distributor than 99 was, but better in pretty much every other category including pure goal scorer. Had Lindros concentrated on playing hockey instead of his meatheaded desire to be a wrecking ball, he'd be the only guy who could compare to Mario with said combination of size, speed, vision, power.
99 and McJesus are fairly close on talent and general approaches to the game, other than McJesus being a faster skater. This season is a bit different, McJesus is shooting more, whereas before, like Gretzky, he was more apt to distribute. That said, they also had - plays terrible defense - on their respective resumes too. McJesus is apparently a big fan of the pre-mid-90's poke 'n go/flyby approach to checking assignments. Now, maybe that is being coached to him, because they want him to blow the zone early and do his cherry-picking act, but there's a reason why the Oil struggle when it matters and that's because in addition to suboptimal goaltending and a mediocre core of defensemen (friggin Cody Ceci skates first pair minutes on that team!), and that's because Zach Hyman is the only guy in the Oil's top 6 forward group who is a plus defender.
24 of McJesus' 54 goals this season were scored on the rush (THE RUSH being hockey fastbreak). Part of that is because he's faster than everyone else, but it's also because he blows the d-zone early all the time. So with him, and it was probably the same with Gretzky, how much of what he accrues offensively is offset by how much he's allowing defensively? Everyone thinks there's this huge gap between him and everyone else. For me, he isn't that far ahead of Matthews who is more well-rounded, and a more versatile scorer - ie over the last 3 years Matthews is in the top 5 of goals scored off of tip-ins, one-timers, and wrist-shots, 1st in cycle chances etc, while being well above average defensively (2nd in blocking passes, 6th in blocking shots, 6th in stick-checks etc.
@craig44 said:
I know that comparing players across decades can be a tricky exercise, but how does Connor compare to the greatest ever? I am mostly a baseball/football guy, but it seems conner is climbing the ranks. Is he considered as good as Crosby? Lemieux? Gretzky? Could he be better? I know scoring is down from the 80's, so he will never match Gretzky's raw output, but how are his analytics compared to the all time greats?
Crosby is basically the ultimate grinder type. He almost plays a power forward game, without actually being a power forward. He's not the most skilled player in any offensive or defensive category, even in his prime, other than playing on his backhand. He prefers to play on that side. That's why left wingers tend to thrive playing with Crosby whereas RW guys like Phil Kessel who was brought in to be a sniper for him had to be bumped to Malkin's line. Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis, Jake Guentzel, Bryan Rust etc...all guys who rode left-shotgun with Sid and all fared better than the crop of RWers than Pitt ran out there. Of Gretzky, Lemieux and McJesus, Crosby is the best defender of that lot. He's the only one who is/was above average in his own end.
For me, Crosby is a better version of Joe Pavelski. Like Little Joe, where Sid differs from the other 3 is he scores the majority of his goals a couple feet from the goal, usually on shot-tips, redirections, rebounds etc. He's not some clever vapor-trail skater, deking guys out of a shooting lane and busting it by goalers. He's often playing with his back to the net and redirecting shots from the point and paddling home seam/slap passes. He and Pavelski score the majority of their goals in that manner.
He's also the gym nut of that sect. Mike Rupp, who now works for NHL Network, told a story about how he broke Sid's weight room record in some weighted medicine ball nonsense, and when Rupp was in the trainers room afterwards, Sid rolls in and says, "hey, heard you topped my mark", then sulked away, headed to the weight room and for 4 hours didn't leave until he bested said mark. Should also note that Mike Rupp is 6'6 230 ish whereas Sid is 5'11. So Sid is that guy. Ultra competitive nutjob.
Lemieux played at 6'3/6'4 & 230. Yet was the better skater than Crosby and 99, and of the four, had the better wrist shot. Combo of speed, power, and despite being that size, was really elusive. Plus Lemieux at least played half of his career in the slog/trap era so you don't have to do any magic-twisting of numbers like you do for Gretzky to see how he'd fare in an era where forwards actually had to play some defense. Lemieux was more talented than 99 as a whole. Not the passer/distributor than 99 was, but better in pretty much every other category including pure goal scorer. Had Lindros concentrated on playing hockey instead of his meatheaded desire to be a wrecking ball, he'd be the only guy who could compare to Mario with said combination of size, speed, vision, power.
99 and McJesus are fairly close on talent and general approaches to the game, other than McJesus being a faster skater. This season is a bit different, McJesus is shooting more, whereas before, like Gretzky, he was more apt to distribute. That said, they also had - plays terrible defense - on their respective resumes too. McJesus is apparently a big fan of the pre-mid-90's poke 'n go/flyby approach to checking assignments. Now, maybe that is being coached to him, because they want him to blow the zone early and do his cherry-picking act, but there's a reason why the Oil struggle when it matters and that's because in addition to suboptimal goaltending and a mediocre core of defensemen (friggin Cody Ceci skates first pair minutes on that team!), and that's because Zach Hyman is the only guy in the Oil's top 6 forward group who is a plus defender.
24 of McJesus' 54 goals this season were scored on the rush (THE RUSH being hockey fastbreak). Part of that is because he's faster than everyone else, but it's also because he blows the d-zone early all the time. So with him, and it was probably the same with Gretzky, how much of what he accrues offensively is offset by how much he's allowing defensively? Everyone thinks there's this huge gap between him and everyone else. For me, he isn't that far ahead of Matthews who is more well-rounded, and a more versatile scorer - ie over the last 3 years Matthews is in the top 5 of goals scored off of tip-ins, one-timers, and wrist-shots, 1st in cycle chances etc, while being well above average defensively (2nd in blocking passes, 6th in blocking shots, 6th in stick-checks etc.
Simply excellent evaluation.
How do you see Kaprizov in relation to the top players of today?
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How do you see Kaprizov in relation to the top players of today?
I mean he's obviously up there, but he has to do more at even strength to be one of the top 5 type forwards. Over 40% of his points on the PP. Some of that is because the Wild don't really have another star level player, at least yet. Losing Fiala hurt. But he's also very much protected in that he only starts 4.2% of his shifts in the defensive zone. Other top guy like Stamkos, Draisaitl etc are around 15-18%. So he's getting the Ovechkin treatment (2.7%) where your coaches are basically saying, yeah, just concentrate on the offense. Even though I think Kirill is capable of being at least average defensively.
You'd also think he'd be up there with the top skaters in the league, and he is to a certain extent (around 20th-ish), but not at the top top. He's around the Matt Duchene and Kadri level in creating chances off the rush and zone entry type stats. Actually he's below Fiala. 26 of his 35 assists are primary assists, so he is creating for others too, but they really need for Boldy or Rossi to be a secondary star level player at some point since they're not going to be able to go out and buy it with their cap-recapture situation.
@spacehayduke said:
Hard to compare, NHL was a more open game back then - goalies having smaller equipment for keeping pucks out of the net, D's were not closing down the ice the way they do now as their game has improved in this way. I never watched Lemiux much, but Gretzky to me seemed to have very quick hands and reaction time, good speed and skating, and was always in the right place - played smart and hence got the opportunities with his skill set to be the best. McDavid OTH, is fast, lightning fast on skates like no other, and can just put the puck on a dime for accuracy, and has tremendous control of his body and the handling the puck in and out of traffic - to watch him is simply amazing. So in that regard, both Gretz and McD are elite but not the same player, and played in different times.
Don't take my word for it, read what the experts and his co-players say about McD. The consensus seems to be that he is the best of his generation. It seems he does something truly great almost every game.
It was actually a more closed off game back then. The Goalie equipment is much smaller now which makes it more offensive, the crease is much smaller now, the two line pass is legal, goalies arent allowed to play pucks in the corner, the hitting and goons are mostly a thing of the past, the trap game the Devils made famous has basically been eliminated etc. All of the rule changes have been with the goal of more offense.
McD is a stud for sure. It just seems a lot of people really dont appreciate just how good Gretzky was. Crosby and Ovi are the closest to matching him. It does need to be considered that Wayne played in a much more violent restricted offensive era
If you go back 20 years, the game was far less open than now. If you go back 40 years, it was far MORE open, combined with bad goaltending.
To my eyes, McDavid is the best forward since Super Mario. And easily a better skater - by a mile - over Gretzky & Mario.
@spacehayduke said:
Hard to compare, NHL was a more open game back then - goalies having smaller equipment for keeping pucks out of the net, D's were not closing down the ice the way they do now as their game has improved in this way. I never watched Lemiux much, but Gretzky to me seemed to have very quick hands and reaction time, good speed and skating, and was always in the right place - played smart and hence got the opportunities with his skill set to be the best. McDavid OTH, is fast, lightning fast on skates like no other, and can just put the puck on a dime for accuracy, and has tremendous control of his body and the handling the puck in and out of traffic - to watch him is simply amazing. So in that regard, both Gretz and McD are elite but not the same player, and played in different times.
Don't take my word for it, read what the experts and his co-players say about McD. The consensus seems to be that he is the best of his generation. It seems he does something truly great almost every game.
It was actually a more closed off game back then. The Goalie equipment is much smaller now which makes it more offensive, the crease is much smaller now, the two line pass is legal, goalies arent allowed to play pucks in the corner, the hitting and goons are mostly a thing of the past, the trap game the Devils made famous has basically been eliminated etc. All of the rule changes have been with the goal of more offense.
McD is a stud for sure. It just seems a lot of people really dont appreciate just how good Gretzky was. Crosby and Ovi are the closest to matching him. It does need to be considered that Wayne played in a much more violent restricted offensive era
If you go back 20 years, the game was far less open than now. If you go back 40 years, it was far MORE open, combined with bad goaltending.
To my eyes, McDavid is the best forward since Super Mario. And easily a better skater - by a mile - over Gretzky & Mario.
Again though if Gretzky had the modern training of McD he would have been at that level. Its all relative to who is the best with what they have in their generation
that would also depend on what one considers "the best skater" to be. Being the fastest is great, but that generally only matters on the rush since McJesus certainly isn't using that speed to backcheck. If that speed draws more turnovers and penalties than other guys that matters too. But you don't have to be the fastest guy out there to be among the best. I mean skating is a combination of quickness, edge work, and vision to create angles to get around players. Some of the "fastest" players are/were better at straight line skating (Coffey, Duncan Keith, Niedermayer), where other top guys are/were more elusive (Housley, Pat Kane, Erik Karlsson, Brian Campbell). Guys who rarely got hit hard or were stood up entering the offensive zone.
If you look at skating proficiency in actual game situations, McJesus isn't even a top guy. He's deadly on the rush, sure, but guys like Carter Verhaeghe, Barzal, and Jack Hughes are ahead of him in stats like controlled zone entries. McJesus is also below Gaudreau and Zegras and not far off from Matthews who is no burner, on d-zone exits. McJesus wasn't even top 10 last year in controlled zone entries. So yeah, being a vapor trail is great, unless you're coughing up the puck and banking turnovers.
So if you're at a scouting combine you're going to take McJesus. If you're a GM/coach looking for actual on-ice results, Jack Hughes is the guy. Top 6 in most keys - zone entries, exits, takeaways, rush chances created, cycle chances, and drawing penalties.
How do you see Kaprizov in relation to the top players of today?
I mean he's obviously up there, but he has to do more at even strength to be one of the top 5 type forwards. Over 40% of his points on the PP. Some of that is because the Wild don't really have another star level player, at least yet. Losing Fiala hurt. But he's also very much protected in that he only starts 4.2% of his shifts in the defensive zone. Other top guy like Stamkos, Draisaitl etc are around 15-18%. So he's getting the Ovechkin treatment (2.7%) where your coaches are basically saying, yeah, just concentrate on the offense. Even though I think Kirill is capable of being at least average defensively.
You'd also think he'd be up there with the top skaters in the league, and he is to a certain extent (around 20th-ish), but not at the top top. He's around the Matt Duchene and Kadri level in creating chances off the rush and zone entry type stats. Actually he's below Fiala. 26 of his 35 assists are primary assists, so he is creating for others too, but they really need for Boldy or Rossi to be a secondary star level player at some point since they're not going to be able to go out and buy it with their cap-recapture situation.
Appreciate the opinion and generally agree.
No real negatives on this guy, although his size might keep him from lasting a long time.
The Wild desperately need a "sniper" type to play with him. His passing is extraordinary (although he does sometimes try to force things resulting in turnovers).
Lou Nanne appears weekly on a local radio station and stated that of the top players, Kirill is the best at winning puck battles along the wall. He sure seems to come away with the puck a lot in those situations.
I am a little surprised at your defensive comments, it sure seems that he plays well in the defensive zone and brings the puck out a lot, compared to most I have seen.
He's now hurt by some worthless gigantic slug who crushed him to the ice.
Hopefully he won't end up like Mark Pavelich (a truly special player) and be gooned out of the league.
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I am a little surprised at your defensive comments, it sure seems that he plays well in the defensive zone and brings the puck out a lot, compared to most I have seen.
I didn't say he sucked defensively or anything, I said he can be at least average. I said the Wild are sheltering him defensively. Meaning when there's a d-zone draw, he's not on the ice 95.8% of the time. That could mean any number of things. Either the coaches don't want him out there because there are better defensive options (they do certainly love Dewar and Shaw defensively since they're both drawing the first PK assignments), they routinely see it as a bad matchup for whatever reason, they're saving his minutes/energy for o-zone starts or whatever. But that is a very low usage total for a guy like him when other stars who aren't a liability defensively are on the ice 10-18% in those situations. When you're that low it's Ovechkin, Pat Kane territory. It's one thing if it were a smaller sample like this was his total usage for a two week stretch. Then you could assume maybe he's hiding an injury. But this is over the entire year. It's just an oddly low total to have him off the ice that much in d-zone starts.
Unless that guy is talking about a specific zone (o-zone, neutral zone, d-zone) I went though the top 20 in puck battle winners, and Kirill is not there. It's highly unlikely he would be because wingers simply don't have the volume opportunities that centers have in that dept. Alex Tuch is the highest rated winger when you factor in all 3 zones. The top 20 are all centers because they simply draw the most opportunities. Matthews is 4th, McJesus is 169th. I'm not going to go through each zone individually. I'm just checking all 3 zones together.
In the end, you're a Wild fan, you know what their main issue is. Scoring at even strength. From Jan 1 to March 1, they were dead last. 24 goals total over 2 months at evens. As of a week or so ago they were 29th in the league, the only playoff contender to be in the bottom 20...and that was with Kirill. I know their cap situation is tough, but what Is Ryan Reaves doing on that team? There was already enough face punchers with Foligno, Middleton and sometimes Dumba. Niederreiter and Granlund went for a 2nd rounders. Bring one of them back and stick them on the third line to at least drive some possession. Even bringing back Bonino would be ok. Instead they brought in a 4th line plug for 6 minutes a night who is dead last in the league at carrying the puck. Guerin has done a nice job navigating that cap situation, but he's gotta find a way to get the Boston meathead out of his system.
Dewar and Shaw are good penalty killers for sure.
Will be interesting to see how the Wild play with Kirill injured.
Surprised Rossi is still in Iowa. He would be their second best center. Doesn't have anything to prove in the minors.
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McD at 57/131, 12 games to go. At that rate, we will see 67/153. Nothing close in 2 decades or so. Wish Goldenage was here to comment about this, hope he still reads these threads after being banned.
Campbell seems to be not so great a goal tender, not sure why he is in this game, I guess they thought it was the Sharks so they could give Skinner a rest. Yikes, Oil better ramp it up on O............
And as I wrote this, Ekholm scores, so 3-3, need a few more, hopefully McD can get one in tonite.
138 points in a season is tied for 27th all time. The last time more than that many points were made in a single season was '95-96, both Jagr and Lemieux. In the past decade, the closest was Kucherov with 128 in '18-19, then pretty much no one until Thornton at 125 in '05-06. So this is quite an achievement and the biggest point total by far in the past 2 decades, and still time to get a few more. 150 points would put him tied for 16th overall with Bernie Nicholls, the latter proving just how easy it was to score back then LOL if Bernie could do it.
I'd be happy with 65-67, but 70 goals would be amazing..............
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Personally I don't think we have seen such a talented player since Gretzky & Lemieux.
And glad he plays for the Oilers, I just hope they can keep him for his whole career, not do the numbskull move of moving him like Peter Puck did with Gretz........... I think if this happened a 2nd time all of Edmonton might revolt, it was bad enough when Gretz was moved, I was there and the city was in mourning for months, there were alot of stunned people, and alot of alcohol additional consumption for a few weeks after..................
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Personally I don't think we have seen such a talented player since Gretzky & Lemieux.
And glad he plays for the Oilers, I just hope they can keep him for his whole career, not do the numbskull move of moving him like Peter Puck did with Gretz........... I think if this happened a 2nd time all of Edmonton might revolt, it was bad enough when Gretz was moved, I was there and the city was in mourning for months, there were alot of stunned people, and alot of alcohol additional consumption for a few weeks after..................
I hope not either that would suck not only for Edmonton but for Canadian hockey fans in general.
Puck drop in 1h45minutes!!! Been listening to hockey all day and will do the same tomorrow pretty good games. Listening to the Capitals vs Pittsburgh live now till Edmonton stars.
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Oil 3, Beantown 2, but alas, no points from McD............................. I'll take it tho'.
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Good win for Edmonton but no points for McDavid.
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Will be hard to beat Boston in a 7 game series in the playoffs hope if it comes down to it Edmonton prevails.
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Teams can go cold. Also Beantown teams sometimes have a tendency to choke in championships - '86 world series as an example, so you just never know................... But it is the nature of sports that when the pressure gets high, some people crumble up and do things poorly and we don't know what the psyche of this team is, nor the Oil for that matter, nor any other team that will be in the playoffs. We just know that there are alot of good and competitive teams this year so we will see, that is why they play.
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If you go back 20 years, the game was far less open than now. If you go back 40 years, it was far MORE open, combined with bad goaltending.
To my eyes, McDavid is the best forward since Super Mario. And easily a better skater - by a mile - over Gretzky & Mario.
Mcsorley trying to commit murder on the ice was one of the most wild moments in sports history. The Oilers team was stacked no doubt about that, given all the assists Wayne had though part of those other guys success was because of him. If he was a puck hog like Ovi he probably could have had another couple hundred goals
Again though if Gretzky had the modern training of McD he would have been at that level. Its all relative to who is the best with what they have in their generation
Crosby is basically the ultimate grinder type. He almost plays a power forward game, without actually being a power forward. He's not the most skilled player in any offensive or defensive category, even in his prime, other than playing on his backhand. He prefers to play on that side. That's why left wingers tend to thrive playing with Crosby whereas RW guys like Phil Kessel who was brought in to be a sniper for him had to be bumped to Malkin's line. Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis, Jake Guentzel, Bryan Rust etc...all guys who rode left-shotgun with Sid and all fared better than the crop of RWers than Pitt ran out there. Of Gretzky, Lemieux and McJesus, Crosby is the best defender of that lot. He's the only one who is/was above average in his own end.
For me, Crosby is a better version of Joe Pavelski. Like Little Joe, where Sid differs from the other 3 is he scores the majority of his goals a couple feet from the goal, usually on shot-tips, redirections, rebounds etc. He's not some clever vapor-trail skater, deking guys out of a shooting lane and busting it by goalers. He's often playing with his back to the net and redirecting shots from the point and paddling home seam/slap passes. He and Pavelski score the majority of their goals in that manner.
He's also the gym nut of that sect. Mike Rupp, who now works for NHL Network, told a story about how he broke Sid's weight room record in some weighted medicine ball nonsense, and when Rupp was in the trainers room afterwards, Sid rolls in and says, "hey, heard you topped my mark", then sulked away, headed to the weight room and for 4 hours didn't leave until he bested said mark. Should also note that Mike Rupp is 6'6 230 ish whereas Sid is 5'11. So Sid is that guy. Ultra competitive nutjob.
Lemieux played at 6'3/6'4 & 230. Yet was the better skater than Crosby and 99, and of the four, had the better wrist shot. Combo of speed, power, and despite being that size, was really elusive. Plus Lemieux at least played half of his career in the slog/trap era so you don't have to do any magic-twisting of numbers like you do for Gretzky to see how he'd fare in an era where forwards actually had to play some defense. Lemieux was more talented than 99 as a whole. Not the passer/distributor than 99 was, but better in pretty much every other category including pure goal scorer. Had Lindros concentrated on playing hockey instead of his meatheaded desire to be a wrecking ball, he'd be the only guy who could compare to Mario with said combination of size, speed, vision, power.
99 and McJesus are fairly close on talent and general approaches to the game, other than McJesus being a faster skater. This season is a bit different, McJesus is shooting more, whereas before, like Gretzky, he was more apt to distribute. That said, they also had - plays terrible defense - on their respective resumes too. McJesus is apparently a big fan of the pre-mid-90's poke 'n go/flyby approach to checking assignments. Now, maybe that is being coached to him, because they want him to blow the zone early and do his cherry-picking act, but there's a reason why the Oil struggle when it matters and that's because in addition to suboptimal goaltending and a mediocre core of defensemen (friggin Cody Ceci skates first pair minutes on that team!), and that's because Zach Hyman is the only guy in the Oil's top 6 forward group who is a plus defender.
24 of McJesus' 54 goals this season were scored on the rush (THE RUSH being hockey fastbreak). Part of that is because he's faster than everyone else, but it's also because he blows the d-zone early all the time. So with him, and it was probably the same with Gretzky, how much of what he accrues offensively is offset by how much he's allowing defensively? Everyone thinks there's this huge gap between him and everyone else. For me, he isn't that far ahead of Matthews who is more well-rounded, and a more versatile scorer - ie over the last 3 years Matthews is in the top 5 of goals scored off of tip-ins, one-timers, and wrist-shots, 1st in cycle chances etc, while being well above average defensively (2nd in blocking passes, 6th in blocking shots, 6th in stick-checks etc.
Simply excellent evaluation.
How do you see Kaprizov in relation to the top players of today?
Happy to see people getting into this topic McDavid sure makes hockey fun to follow/watch!!!
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Next game 2023-03-11 vs Toronto game starts at 7h00pm Eastern.
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I mean he's obviously up there, but he has to do more at even strength to be one of the top 5 type forwards. Over 40% of his points on the PP. Some of that is because the Wild don't really have another star level player, at least yet. Losing Fiala hurt. But he's also very much protected in that he only starts 4.2% of his shifts in the defensive zone. Other top guy like Stamkos, Draisaitl etc are around 15-18%. So he's getting the Ovechkin treatment (2.7%) where your coaches are basically saying, yeah, just concentrate on the offense. Even though I think Kirill is capable of being at least average defensively.
You'd also think he'd be up there with the top skaters in the league, and he is to a certain extent (around 20th-ish), but not at the top top. He's around the Matt Duchene and Kadri level in creating chances off the rush and zone entry type stats. Actually he's below Fiala. 26 of his 35 assists are primary assists, so he is creating for others too, but they really need for Boldy or Rossi to be a secondary star level player at some point since they're not going to be able to go out and buy it with their cap-recapture situation.
that would also depend on what one considers "the best skater" to be. Being the fastest is great, but that generally only matters on the rush since McJesus certainly isn't using that speed to backcheck. If that speed draws more turnovers and penalties than other guys that matters too. But you don't have to be the fastest guy out there to be among the best. I mean skating is a combination of quickness, edge work, and vision to create angles to get around players. Some of the "fastest" players are/were better at straight line skating (Coffey, Duncan Keith, Niedermayer), where other top guys are/were more elusive (Housley, Pat Kane, Erik Karlsson, Brian Campbell). Guys who rarely got hit hard or were stood up entering the offensive zone.
If you look at skating proficiency in actual game situations, McJesus isn't even a top guy. He's deadly on the rush, sure, but guys like Carter Verhaeghe, Barzal, and Jack Hughes are ahead of him in stats like controlled zone entries. McJesus is also below Gaudreau and Zegras and not far off from Matthews who is no burner, on d-zone exits. McJesus wasn't even top 10 last year in controlled zone entries. So yeah, being a vapor trail is great, unless you're coughing up the puck and banking turnovers.
So if you're at a scouting combine you're going to take McJesus. If you're a GM/coach looking for actual on-ice results, Jack Hughes is the guy. Top 6 in most keys - zone entries, exits, takeaways, rush chances created, cycle chances, and drawing penalties.
Appreciate the opinion and generally agree.
No real negatives on this guy, although his size might keep him from lasting a long time.
The Wild desperately need a "sniper" type to play with him. His passing is extraordinary (although he does sometimes try to force things resulting in turnovers).
Lou Nanne appears weekly on a local radio station and stated that of the top players, Kirill is the best at winning puck battles along the wall. He sure seems to come away with the puck a lot in those situations.
I am a little surprised at your defensive comments, it sure seems that he plays well in the defensive zone and brings the puck out a lot, compared to most I have seen.
He's now hurt by some worthless gigantic slug who crushed him to the ice.
Hopefully he won't end up like Mark Pavelich (a truly special player) and be gooned out of the league.
I didn't say he sucked defensively or anything, I said he can be at least average. I said the Wild are sheltering him defensively. Meaning when there's a d-zone draw, he's not on the ice 95.8% of the time. That could mean any number of things. Either the coaches don't want him out there because there are better defensive options (they do certainly love Dewar and Shaw defensively since they're both drawing the first PK assignments), they routinely see it as a bad matchup for whatever reason, they're saving his minutes/energy for o-zone starts or whatever. But that is a very low usage total for a guy like him when other stars who aren't a liability defensively are on the ice 10-18% in those situations. When you're that low it's Ovechkin, Pat Kane territory. It's one thing if it were a smaller sample like this was his total usage for a two week stretch. Then you could assume maybe he's hiding an injury. But this is over the entire year. It's just an oddly low total to have him off the ice that much in d-zone starts.
Unless that guy is talking about a specific zone (o-zone, neutral zone, d-zone) I went though the top 20 in puck battle winners, and Kirill is not there. It's highly unlikely he would be because wingers simply don't have the volume opportunities that centers have in that dept. Alex Tuch is the highest rated winger when you factor in all 3 zones. The top 20 are all centers because they simply draw the most opportunities. Matthews is 4th, McJesus is 169th. I'm not going to go through each zone individually. I'm just checking all 3 zones together.
In the end, you're a Wild fan, you know what their main issue is. Scoring at even strength. From Jan 1 to March 1, they were dead last. 24 goals total over 2 months at evens. As of a week or so ago they were 29th in the league, the only playoff contender to be in the bottom 20...and that was with Kirill. I know their cap situation is tough, but what Is Ryan Reaves doing on that team? There was already enough face punchers with Foligno, Middleton and sometimes Dumba. Niederreiter and Granlund went for a 2nd rounders. Bring one of them back and stick them on the third line to at least drive some possession. Even bringing back Bonino would be ok. Instead they brought in a 4th line plug for 6 minutes a night who is dead last in the league at carrying the puck. Guerin has done a nice job navigating that cap situation, but he's gotta find a way to get the Boston meathead out of his system.
Dewar and Shaw are good penalty killers for sure.
Will be interesting to see how the Wild play with Kirill injured.
Surprised Rossi is still in Iowa. He would be their second best center. Doesn't have anything to prove in the minors.
Puck drop to all a good Saturday night hockey let's get this done Edmonton!!!
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3 point game for McDavid.
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Next game March 14th versus Ottawa at 9h00pm Eastern time.
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2 more points for McDavid this evening.
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Next game versus Dallas March 16th at 9h00pm Eastern time.
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1 point for McDavid tonight 2nd period.
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Next game versus Seattle March 18th at 4h00pm Eastern time.
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I sure could use a Connor update after watching Kansas lose to Arkansas.
C’mon pillar dollar I know he had a good game today 😛
Sorry was over watching the game at a family members house great game!!! 3 more points for McDavid.
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Next game versus San Jose March 20th at 9h30pm Eastern time.
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Thank you Sir! 🏒
McD at 57/131, 12 games to go. At that rate, we will see 67/153. Nothing close in 2 decades or so. Wish Goldenage was here to comment about this, hope he still reads these threads after being banned.
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I hope he hits 150 never thought I would see that number again in my lifetime.
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This may be more common going forward if McD continues to be healthy...........
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Game on lets go McDavid!!!
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2 points far for McDavid.
Needs 14 more points to reach 150.
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First point early in the 2nd, assist for McD...........
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Good game so far 4-3 for San Jose.
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Campbell seems to be not so great a goal tender, not sure why he is in this game, I guess they thought it was the Sharks so they could give Skinner a rest. Yikes, Oil better ramp it up on O............
And as I wrote this, Ekholm scores, so 3-3, need a few more, hopefully McD can get one in tonite.
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5-4 OT Edmonton wins
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Next game versus Arizona March 20th at 10h30pm Eastern time.
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Game on!!!
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59
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Make that 60!!!
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Next game versus Vegas March 25th at 10h00pm Eastern time.
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Congrats to Connor on 60. when is the last time a player got to 60? 70?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
nevermind, answered my own question. looks like it was one whole season ago.
70 looks like it has been 30 years. I wonder what the chances are that Conner goes after 70 hard in the few games left?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
138 points in a season is tied for 27th all time. The last time more than that many points were made in a single season was '95-96, both Jagr and Lemieux. In the past decade, the closest was Kucherov with 128 in '18-19, then pretty much no one until Thornton at 125 in '05-06. So this is quite an achievement and the biggest point total by far in the past 2 decades, and still time to get a few more. 150 points would put him tied for 16th overall with Bernie Nicholls, the latter proving just how easy it was to score back then LOL if Bernie could do it.
I'd be happy with 65-67, but 70 goals would be amazing..............
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I say 65 but 70 in this day and age would be hard to break and incredible.
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Personally I don't think we have seen such a talented player since Gretzky & Lemieux.
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And glad he plays for the Oilers, I just hope they can keep him for his whole career, not do the numbskull move of moving him like Peter Puck did with Gretz........... I think if this happened a 2nd time all of Edmonton might revolt, it was bad enough when Gretz was moved, I was there and the city was in mourning for months, there were alot of stunned people, and alot of alcohol additional consumption for a few weeks after..................
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I hope not either that would suck not only for Edmonton but for Canadian hockey fans in general.
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Should be a good game tomorrow evening.
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Puck drop in 1h45minutes!!! Been listening to hockey all day and will do the same tomorrow pretty good games. Listening to the Capitals vs Pittsburgh live now till Edmonton stars.
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