The highest-grade palladium/platinum PGM mines the world are the Stillwater and East Boulder underground mines Montana. They produce 78% palladium and 22% platinum, and the average ore grade is a little under 1/2 ounce/ton. Their all-in sustaining cost was $1,004/ounce in 2021. Production is a bit over 1/2 million ounces a year.
Russia gets most of their PGMs from the huge open pit nickel mine and its by-products. Costs to mine there are lower.
@gumby1234 said:
Does it cost more to mine than silver or copper? I have no idea.
Not much silver is mined any longer. Most is a by-product of other mining especially copper. In a recession silver production will drop sharply no matter the price.
Those Winged Liberty coins got their wings clipped. Now they’re in the “ no fly” zone from the mint with those premiums, but possibly a great buy in the open market, after the drop. They’re similar to many items sold via the mint. One only needs to look in the red book for more info.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Those Winged Liberty coins got their wings clipped. Now they’re in the “ no fly” zone from the mint with those premiums, but possibly a great buy in the open market, after the drop. They’re similar to many items sold via the mint. One only needs to look in the red book for more info.
I have two and may decide to complete the full set with prices on the secondary market getting more tempting. Meanwhile I will just sit on my 2018 and 2019 for type.
@cladking said:
The wealth effect leads people to buy all manner of things but especially they buy things similar to what has gone up a lot generating that wealth effect. If someone sells bags of silver quarters at an obscene profit they are more like to buy more coins than more toasters. And if they buy coins they are more likely to buy what's hot than what's not.
You are going under the false assumption that when precious metals coinage gets hot, clads will automatically be "hot" too. People who sold silver coins at good numbers in 2011 didn't jump into clads. I agree that they will buy what's hot but if they're making bank on precious metal coins then they will continue to dance with the one that brought them.. And clad coinage isn't it IMO.
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people low-balling the offer.
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people off.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people off.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
I didn't quote a price of $600 over. But these have a premium over spot and an ethical dealer would pay over spot for them because they can sell them for over spot.
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people off.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
I didn't quote a price of $600 over. But these have a premium over spot and an ethical dealer would pay over spot for them because they can sell them for over spot.
I didn't say you quoted a price of $600 over and I also know that these will (for now at least) still sell at some premium to spot; I asked if you think that the LCS guy is ripping them off unless he's willing to bail them out. This kind of goes back to an earlier statement I made about how people open their wallets for this stuff at $600 over but balk at $100 over at the LCS. How much margin do you graciously allow someone to make before you call them a thief?
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people off.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
I didn't quote a price of $600 over. But these have a premium over spot and an ethical dealer would pay over spot for them because they can sell them for over spot.
I didn't say you quoted a price of $600 over and I also know that these will (for now at least) still sell at some premium to spot; I asked if you think that the LCS guy is ripping them off unless he's willing to bail them out. This kind of goes back to an earlier statement I made about how people open their wallets for this stuff at $600 over but balk at $100 over at the LCS. How much margin do you graciously allow someone to make before you call them a thief?
These sell in the secondary market for $400+ over spot. If the number is $400, you should be paying $100 to $200 over spot IMHO. They are fairly liquid and I don't think you should be trying to may make 20+% on the coin.
Compare it to gold. Eagles sell for $100 over spot. Would you be okay with the dealer offering $100 or $200 UNDER spot?
Edited to add. Or maybe proof Eagles are a better comparison. They sell for $350 over spot. It's spot a good offer?
That’s kinda conservative JM. 2019S ase $1000+. Your spot on with this comparison.
@ telephoto1 asks a valid question. Somewhere in between your both providing excellent responses.
Carry on 😉
@Jzyskowski1 said:
That’s kinda conservative JM. 2019S ase $1000+. Your spot on with this comparison.
@ telephoto1 asks a valid question. Somewhere in between your both providing excellent responses.
Carry on 😉
I've seen prices from $400 to $1000, all years. I didn't want to overstate the case.
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people off.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
I didn't quote a price of $600 over. But these have a premium over spot and an ethical dealer would pay over spot for them because they can sell them for over spot.
I didn't say you quoted a price of $600 over and I also know that these will (for now at least) still sell at some premium to spot; I asked if you think that the LCS guy is ripping them off unless he's willing to bail them out. This kind of goes back to an earlier statement I made about how people open their wallets for this stuff at $600 over but balk at $100 over at the LCS. How much margin do you graciously allow someone to make before you call them a thief?
These sell in the secondary market for $400+ over spot. If the number is $400, you should be paying $100 to $200 over spot IMHO. They are fairly liquid and I don't think you should be trying to may make 20+% on the coin.
Compare it to gold. Eagles sell for $100 over spot. Would you be okay with the dealer offering $100 or $200 UNDER spot?
Edited to add. Or maybe proof Eagles are a better comparison. They sell for $350 over spot. It's spot a good offer?
First off, we're talking about palladium and not gold so your comparison to gold is silly. Yes, there are currently secondary collectible market premiums to spot for these, but the reality is that Pd does not have the same broad-based retail market demand as gold or silver, and you know it. Some shops don't retail it at all in fact but may acquire it as part of a larger deal and then flip it at a lesser premium because they aren't interested in having it in inventory.
To be clear, I'm not advocating paying just spot for something that sells for a substantial premium over spot. What I took issue with is the idea of summarily calling someone a thief unless they pay exactly what YOU think they should. In fact I believe you've even argued that point with others here in the past. I tend to bristle when others here pontificate about how they know best about what everyone else's margins need to be.
Different LCS buyers have different overhead, different needs, different inventory and different local markets...and some would rather quick-flip things like this to another perhaps higher volume dealer rather than try to whore the last dime out of them OTC or online. So offers will vary (within common sense-based parameters, obviously). That's all I'm saying.
@Mr Lindy said:
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people off.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
I didn't quote a price of $600 over. But these have a premium over spot and an ethical dealer would pay over spot for them because they can sell them for over spot.
I didn't say you quoted a price of $600 over and I also know that these will (for now at least) still sell at some premium to spot; I asked if you think that the LCS guy is ripping them off unless he's willing to bail them out. This kind of goes back to an earlier statement I made about how people open their wallets for this stuff at $600 over but balk at $100 over at the LCS. How much margin do you graciously allow someone to make before you call them a thief?
These sell in the secondary market for $400+ over spot. If the number is $400, you should be paying $100 to $200 over spot IMHO. They are fairly liquid and I don't think you should be trying to may make 20+% on the coin.
Compare it to gold. Eagles sell for $100 over spot. Would you be okay with the dealer offering $100 or $200 UNDER spot?
Edited to add. Or maybe proof Eagles are a better comparison. They sell for $350 over spot. It's spot a good offer?
First off, we're talking about palladium and not gold so your comparison to gold is silly. Yes, there are currently secondary collectible market premiums to spot for these, but the reality is that Pt does not have the same broad-based retail market demand as gold or silver, and you know it. Some shops don't retail it at all in fact but may acquire it as part of a larger deal and then flip it at a lesser premium because they aren't interested in having it in inventory.
To be clear, I'm not advocating paying just spot for something that sells for a substantial premium over spot. What I took issue with is the idea of summarily calling someone a thief unless they pay exactly what YOU think they should. In fact I believe you've even argued that point with others here in the past. I tend to bristle when others here pontificate about how they know best about what everyone else's margins need to be.
Different LCS buyers have different overhead, different needs, different inventory and different local markets...and some would rather quick-flip things like this to another perhaps higher volume dealer rather than try to whore the last dime out of them OTC or online. So offers will vary (within common sense-based parameters, obviously). That's all I'm saying.
I
Edit for typo
I don't like people specifically being called "thieves". I'm not a huge fan of general behavior being questioned. So, admittedly, I'm guilty as charged.
It is not silly to compare one precious metal to another. Yes, gold and silver are even more liquid than Pd and Pt, but there are wholesale bids for the Pd coins. To that end, there is zero risk to the LCS buyer who can flip it wholesale if they have no customer for it.
My somewhat visceral reaction was driven largely by the tendency to label dealers "thieves" if they buy too low (or sell too high). And yes, my knee-jerk reaction had me doing the same thing, but it just struck me as though the poster felt it was ok to buy these cheap if their local LCS underpaid for it. So low ball offers are okay as long as they benefit me??? I should have moderated my language a bit.
It is one thing to pad the margin on a collectible coin that is difficult to move. To my mind, it is a little different to buy a liquid asset that you can flip with a phone call at well below market.
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
The premium charged has been discussed here and on the other thread. The US Mint charges a $950 premium to spot for new issues. It is not surprising to see these sell for $400+ over spot.
@rays said:
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
When investing in something, the goal is to buy low and sell high. People that bought palladium at the top are screwed. People that buy palladium at the bottom may make money. We are in a recession and interest rates are rising every month. That means cars cost more to buy and fewer people are buying cars because of economic instability.
Are we at the bottom yet? An ounce of gold now costs more than an ounce of palladium? Is it temporary or will gold always remain king? Are the catalytic converters the cause??? Less cars being manufactured? There were news stories last summer about catalytic converter thieves...stealing them right off cars on the street!
I don't think it is a stretch to see platinum go higher than palladium. Not saying it will happen soon, but that is where it was historically & maybe a return. FWIW, palladium is a rather unattractive medal with a nickel-like greyishness (like that word?), and not up to Pt, let alone freshly minted silver.
I don't see the current US Mint premiums as being of this world and seems to go along with their principle of decreasing volume of sales with higher premiums versus pumping more units at less profit per unit.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@Onastone said:
Are we at the bottom yet? An ounce of gold now costs more than an ounce of palladium? Is it temporary or will gold always remain king? Are the catalytic converters the cause??? Less cars being manufactured? There were news stories last summer about catalytic converter thieves...stealing them right off cars on the street!
They'll steal your gold hub caps also.
Historically, Pd was cheaper than gold. I'm not sure why people are making a big deal about that comparison. In fact, you can fix that by collapsing the price of gold.
For utility, Pt and Pd are much more useful than gold. But the hoarding of gold has always inflated its price.
@7Jaguars said:
I don't think it is a stretch to see platinum go higher than palladium. Not saying it will happen soon, but that is where it was historically & maybe a return. FWIW, palladium is a rather unattractive medal with a nickel-like greyishness (like that word?), and not up to Pt, let alone freshly minted silver.
I don't see the current US Mint premiums as being of this world and seems to go along with their principle of decreasing volume of sales with higher premiums versus pumping more units at less profit per unit.
Well below $1400 is looking more probable and there’s dang near a $450 spread. I’m learning and watching. Sooooo platinum used to be more expensive than palladium.
He, JM. Agreed they will steal your gold hubcaps but there about a gazillion more catalytic converters then gold hubcaps. I was wondering, when you mentioned stealing hubcaps, remember when a person couldn’t keep their Mercedes hood ornaments, I lost 2 , both from my 63 220se. I believe Mercedes stopped around 2000 or so. They are expensive to replace.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Well below $1400 is looking more probable and there’s dang near a $450 spread. I’m learning and watching. Sooooo platinum used to be more expensive than palladium.
He, JM. Agreed they will steal your gold hubcaps but there about a gazillion more catalytic converters then gold hubcaps. I was wondering, when you mentioned stealing hubcaps, remember when a person couldn’t keep their Mercedes hood ornaments, I lost 2 , both from my 63 220se. I believe Mercedes stopped around 2000 or so. They are expensive to replace.
My only point was that they are simply stealing the easiest thing that is worth money.
Back around 2000, a friend and I were interested in catalytical metals. At the time, gold was about $350, Pt was close to $400 and Pd was $200. You can look up the historical numbers. That's why I've been arguing against this gold/Pd comparison based on recent prices.
In the mid 2000s, the auto companies starting using Pd and Pt because of disruptions in the Pt supply. This pushed the price of Pd up significantly. In the last 5 years, it really surged - until recently. Pd was under $600 as late as 2016. It didn't cross $1000 until 2018.
I hope it stays this low when the 2023 coin comes out. Would be nice to take less of a hit than in the past. Plus, I think the next one is the UNC, which is my least fav finish of them (well, its not that bad really).
@rays said:
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
When investing in something, the goal is to buy low and sell high. People that bought palladium at the top are screwed. People that buy palladium at the bottom may make money. We are in a recession and interest rates are rising every month. That means cars cost more to buy and fewer people are buying cars because of economic instability.
Another effect of federal tightening is a significant increase in available rates on savings accounts. My favorite online bank now offers 4.00 APY on their High Yield Savings with no time commitment, minimum balance, or monthly fees. They also offer 5.00% APY on a 14-month CD with no minimum balance. As the increase in savings rates continue, money will be drawn away to these fully insured havens for ordinary folks.
@rays said:
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
When investing in something, the goal is to buy low and sell high. People that bought palladium at the top are screwed. People that buy palladium at the bottom may make money. We are in a recession and interest rates are rising every month. That means cars cost more to buy and fewer people are buying cars because of economic instability.
Another effect of federal tightening is a significant increase in available rates on savings accounts. My favorite online bank now offers 4.00 APY on their High Yield Savings with no time commitment, minimum balance, or monthly fees. They also offer 5.00% APY on a 14-month CD with no minimum balance. As the increase in savings rates continue, money will be drawn away to these fully insured havens for ordinary folks.
Excellent point. The bottom line is that the economy people were used to the orgy of spending that began in 2020 no longer exists, and won’t exist again for awhile.
@rays said:
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
When investing in something, the goal is to buy low and sell high. People that bought palladium at the top are screwed. People that buy palladium at the bottom may make money. We are in a recession and interest rates are rising every month. That means cars cost more to buy and fewer people are buying cars because of economic instability.
Another effect of federal tightening is a significant increase in available rates on savings accounts. My favorite online bank now offers 4.00 APY on their High Yield Savings with no time commitment, minimum balance, or monthly fees. They also offer 5.00% APY on a 14-month CD with no minimum balance. As the increase in savings rates continue, money will be drawn away to these fully insured havens for ordinary folks.
Excellent point. The bottom line is that the economy people were used to the orgy of spending that began in 2020 no longer exists, and won’t exist again for awhile.
The government put an ocean of money into the economy in the past few years, and the inevitable reckoning is beginning to come due.
@rays said:
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
When investing in something, the goal is to buy low and sell high. People that bought palladium at the top are screwed. People that buy palladium at the bottom may make money. We are in a recession and interest rates are rising every month. That means cars cost more to buy and fewer people are buying cars because of economic instability.
Another effect of federal tightening is a significant increase in available rates on savings accounts. My favorite online bank now offers 4.00 APY on their High Yield Savings with no time commitment, minimum balance, or monthly fees. They also offer 5.00% APY on a 14-month CD with no minimum balance. As the increase in savings rates continue, money will be drawn away to these fully insured havens for ordinary folks.
Yeah well the counterpoint to all this is in the short term is the SVB crisis. The dollar is sinking right now and that means the fed may hold interest rate hikes but also means precious metal prices are climbing and that means a very active week ahead.
Copper, nickel, or cu/ ni are never going to go up much because of their metallic content. At least they never will vis a vis their current face value.
Never is an awfully long time. With the rate of inflation it won't be long before the melt value of the metal exceeds face value. and mining these metals will become more expensive at a rate higher than inflation. I'm sure there are better investments, but I think they will go up more than you suggest.
Cars are never going away. The amount of copper needed to support the infrastructure for electrical vehicles and the “green transition” as a whole might end up doing to copper what was done to silver decades ago. I’m of the belief that coins aren’t great investments, but if you’re going to bet on coins that will gain value, you have to go to where other people aren’t willing to go. We’ve let clad coins go for too long and the rise in price of copper and a possible copper shortage might finally give clad coins their day. Especially since it costs more than a penny or a nickel to make those respective coins. What’s to stop dimes, quarters and dollar coins from being next?
Copper, nickel, or cu/ ni are never going to go up much because of their metallic content. At least they never will vis a vis their current face value.
However I do believe that if gold, silver, and even palladium coins were to increase substantially from these levels, coin collectors would put a significant portion of their profits into clads and moderns. Not only do increases in metals prices create a lot of "wealth effect" in the hobby but purchases tend to be concentrated into what is 'hot" and this will certainly include clads.
In 1979 when silver went crazy the profits were put into what was hot then. Most of this was US silver coin and silver dollars but it also included indian cents and buffalo nickels. Even mint set mintages increased substantially despite the mint raising prices.
I'm sure many have thought that for a long time. While it does not seem like much in a single coin, but a copper cent is worth 250% of its face value. That is pretty significant, and if it happened to the cent there's nothing to say it couldn't happen to the other denominations.
It has. Nickels cost 9 cents to produce at one time, not sure if the current number. But so what? Even if a nickel is worth a quarter, they are not a good store of value because of the weight to $ ratio. There's 90 nickels to a pound. Even at 5x face value, that's only $22.50 PER POUND as opposed to silver at $22.50 per OUNCE at current prices and gold at $60 per GRAM.
$22.50 is pocket change to some and a lot of money to others.
For $22.50, would you rather have a pound or an ounce in your pocket?
Comments
From a high of $3150.00 to this new low of $2400.00 Any guesses where it's heading? Where is the bottom? $2000.00 ?
I remember when Palladium was $180 an oz. It may return to those levels.
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I don't think it can go quite that low. Mining costs have gone up in the 20 years since.
Does it cost more to mine than silver or copper? I have no idea.
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The highest-grade palladium/platinum PGM mines the world are the Stillwater and East Boulder underground mines Montana. They produce 78% palladium and 22% platinum, and the average ore grade is a little under 1/2 ounce/ton. Their all-in sustaining cost was $1,004/ounce in 2021. Production is a bit over 1/2 million ounces a year.
Russia gets most of their PGMs from the huge open pit nickel mine and its by-products. Costs to mine there are lower.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Wonder if gold will drop like that too.
If it costs $1004 per oz then they will have to stop mining if the price goes any lower.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Not much silver is mined any longer. Most is a by-product of other mining especially copper. In a recession silver production will drop sharply no matter the price.
Those Winged Liberty coins got their wings clipped. Now they’re in the “ no fly” zone from the mint with those premiums, but possibly a great buy in the open market, after the drop. They’re similar to many items sold via the mint. One only needs to look in the red book for more info.
I have two and may decide to complete the full set with prices on the secondary market getting more tempting. Meanwhile I will just sit on my 2018 and 2019 for type.
You are going under the false assumption that when precious metals coinage gets hot, clads will automatically be "hot" too. People who sold silver coins at good numbers in 2011 didn't jump into clads. I agree that they will buy what's hot but if they're making bank on precious metal coins then they will continue to dance with the one that brought them.. And clad coinage isn't it IMO.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Does anybody really know what Russia does in terms of production and availability?
Any big move by a big player will be termed "manipulation"
Yikes....
At those prices, it may be an opportunity to buy a coin with a microscopic mintage but it would be gambol in any event.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It’s also a truly beautiful coin. One that I overpayed for, lol.
Local coin shop who buys and sells based on spot would be my go-to aftermarket source.
Mint premiums on these are insane.
You can't buy everything at spot, so you can't sell everything at spot. These do carry a premium in the secondary market. If your local CS is buying these at spot, he's ripping people low-balling the offer.
Edited to be less insulting.
I don't necessarily agree with that last sentence. So the local guy is ripping them unless he's willing to at least bail them out at $600 over? As I write this, spot's down another $45. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a little insurance in a falling market for something that frankly isn't as easy a sell as gold or silver, particularly if there are also local laws about holding OTC purchases for X number of days before you can sell them. Also, some of the LCS guys don't necessarily hunt the last nickel on the aftermarket and flip some things like this to higher volume dealers. Not as much profit but they don't have to hold it... and with a small biz, cash flow is important. So it's not as cut and dried as "if they don't pay X they're ripping you off".
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
$55 price drop today!
Loving the price drop. Hoping for sub $1000.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I didn't quote a price of $600 over. But these have a premium over spot and an ethical dealer would pay over spot for them because they can sell them for over spot.
I didn't say you quoted a price of $600 over and I also know that these will (for now at least) still sell at some premium to spot; I asked if you think that the LCS guy is ripping them off unless he's willing to bail them out. This kind of goes back to an earlier statement I made about how people open their wallets for this stuff at $600 over but balk at $100 over at the LCS. How much margin do you graciously allow someone to make before you call them a thief?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
These sell in the secondary market for $400+ over spot. If the number is $400, you should be paying $100 to $200 over spot IMHO. They are fairly liquid and I don't think you should be trying to may make 20+% on the coin.
Compare it to gold. Eagles sell for $100 over spot. Would you be okay with the dealer offering $100 or $200 UNDER spot?
Edited to add. Or maybe proof Eagles are a better comparison. They sell for $350 over spot. It's spot a good offer?
That’s kinda conservative JM. 2019S ase $1000+. Your spot on with this comparison.
@ telephoto1 asks a valid question. Somewhere in between your both providing excellent responses.
Carry on 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I've seen prices from $400 to $1000, all years. I didn't want to overstate the case.
First off, we're talking about palladium and not gold so your comparison to gold is silly. Yes, there are currently secondary collectible market premiums to spot for these, but the reality is that Pd does not have the same broad-based retail market demand as gold or silver, and you know it. Some shops don't retail it at all in fact but may acquire it as part of a larger deal and then flip it at a lesser premium because they aren't interested in having it in inventory.
To be clear, I'm not advocating paying just spot for something that sells for a substantial premium over spot. What I took issue with is the idea of summarily calling someone a thief unless they pay exactly what YOU think they should. In fact I believe you've even argued that point with others here in the past. I tend to bristle when others here pontificate about how they know best about what everyone else's margins need to be.
Different LCS buyers have different overhead, different needs, different inventory and different local markets...and some would rather quick-flip things like this to another perhaps higher volume dealer rather than try to whore the last dime out of them OTC or online. So offers will vary (within common sense-based parameters, obviously). That's all I'm saying.
Edit for typos
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I don't like people specifically being called "thieves". I'm not a huge fan of general behavior being questioned. So, admittedly, I'm guilty as charged.
It is not silly to compare one precious metal to another. Yes, gold and silver are even more liquid than Pd and Pt, but there are wholesale bids for the Pd coins. To that end, there is zero risk to the LCS buyer who can flip it wholesale if they have no customer for it.
My somewhat visceral reaction was driven largely by the tendency to label dealers "thieves" if they buy too low (or sell too high). And yes, my knee-jerk reaction had me doing the same thing, but it just struck me as though the poster felt it was ok to buy these cheap if their local LCS underpaid for it. So low ball offers are okay as long as they benefit me??? I should have moderated my language a bit.
It is one thing to pad the margin on a collectible coin that is difficult to move. To my mind, it is a little different to buy a liquid asset that you can flip with a phone call at well below market.
I have softened my language in the original post.
After seeing this thread, I looked up online buying palladium coins, which I had never considered before. I don’t understand why the premium asked was hundreds (at least $400) over spot, AND these coins were out of stock at almost all bullion dealers I could find. If the spot price of palladium is $1400, and you pay $1800 for a one ounce coin, I presume you would be seriously underwater when going to sell (the same dealers were offering $50 under spot to buy). Since these coins have essentially no numismatic value over their bullion content, this does not seem a good investment.
Looks like it’s going to drop into the 1300’s. $1408 as of this evening. Interesting to watch and read the comments from owners.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The premium charged has been discussed here and on the other thread. The US Mint charges a $950 premium to spot for new issues. It is not surprising to see these sell for $400+ over spot.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
When investing in something, the goal is to buy low and sell high. People that bought palladium at the top are screwed. People that buy palladium at the bottom may make money. We are in a recession and interest rates are rising every month. That means cars cost more to buy and fewer people are buying cars because of economic instability.
Are we at the bottom yet? An ounce of gold now costs more than an ounce of palladium? Is it temporary or will gold always remain king? Are the catalytic converters the cause??? Less cars being manufactured? There were news stories last summer about catalytic converter thieves...stealing them right off cars on the street!
I don't think it is a stretch to see platinum go higher than palladium. Not saying it will happen soon, but that is where it was historically & maybe a return. FWIW, palladium is a rather unattractive medal with a nickel-like greyishness (like that word?), and not up to Pt, let alone freshly minted silver.
I don't see the current US Mint premiums as being of this world and seems to go along with their principle of decreasing volume of sales with higher premiums versus pumping more units at less profit per unit.
Well, just Love coins, period.
They'll steal your gold hub caps also.
Historically, Pd was cheaper than gold. I'm not sure why people are making a big deal about that comparison. In fact, you can fix that by collapsing the price of gold.
For utility, Pt and Pd are much more useful than gold. But the hoarding of gold has always inflated its price.
They were losing money at the lower premiums.
Well below $1400 is looking more probable and there’s dang near a $450 spread. I’m learning and watching. Sooooo platinum used to be more expensive than palladium.
He, JM. Agreed they will steal your gold hubcaps but there about a gazillion more catalytic converters then gold hubcaps. I was wondering, when you mentioned stealing hubcaps, remember when a person couldn’t keep their Mercedes hood ornaments, I lost 2 , both from my 63 220se. I believe Mercedes stopped around 2000 or so. They are expensive to replace.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
My only point was that they are simply stealing the easiest thing that is worth money.
Back around 2000, a friend and I were interested in catalytical metals. At the time, gold was about $350, Pt was close to $400 and Pd was $200. You can look up the historical numbers. That's why I've been arguing against this gold/Pd comparison based on recent prices.
In the mid 2000s, the auto companies starting using Pd and Pt because of disruptions in the Pt supply. This pushed the price of Pd up significantly. In the last 5 years, it really surged - until recently. Pd was under $600 as late as 2016. It didn't cross $1000 until 2018.
I hope it stays this low when the 2023 coin comes out. Would be nice to take less of a hit than in the past. Plus, I think the next one is the UNC, which is my least fav finish of them (well, its not that bad really).
I do not own any Palladium coins and didn't think of adding any until the recent price decreases...
What should the price spread be when shopping for Palladium coins? I know what it is for gold and silver...
I looked at some on the bay and see sellers asking $1,300 for $300 worth of Palladium coins...
Another effect of federal tightening is a significant increase in available rates on savings accounts. My favorite online bank now offers 4.00 APY on their High Yield Savings with no time commitment, minimum balance, or monthly fees. They also offer 5.00% APY on a 14-month CD with no minimum balance. As the increase in savings rates continue, money will be drawn away to these fully insured havens for ordinary folks.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
That would be enough to entice me to complete a full set of palladiums. Meanwhile I am satisfied with the two examples in my type set.
Excellent point. The bottom line is that the economy people were used to the orgy of spending that began in 2020 no longer exists, and won’t exist again for awhile.
The government put an ocean of money into the economy in the past few years, and the inevitable reckoning is beginning to come due.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I love it!
Hold your line APMEX, do not let spot pricing deter you from seeing true Pd AE value!
Wonder how many buyers? Maybe better than the HSN price?
Well, just Love coins, period.
Yeah well the counterpoint to all this is in the short term is the SVB crisis. The dollar is sinking right now and that means the fed may hold interest rate hikes but also means precious metal prices are climbing and that means a very active week ahead.
For $22.50, would you rather have a pound or an ounce in your pocket?