Any info on Union Mine Oregon Territory counterstamps on Seated Coinage?

InGodWeTrustCoins

Does anyone have any information on these pieces. Both are graded details, damaged by PCGS with no other information on the holders.
Devin

TomB

I'd imagine that if PCGS is willing to encapsulate them it means they are listed in a PCGS-accepted reference work. You may want to hunt down what references PCGS uses for this type of piece.

InGodWeTrustCoins

@TomB, okay, I've been searching their website and will continue to look around. They said nothing about the counterstamp on the holders though. I will try to get a picture of the slabs next week.

JBK

Two observations:

First, they were stamped with individual punches so authentication would be difficult at best.

Second, the style of the letters is not what I associate with the 19th century. It is similar to punches that have come out of India and China in recent decades.

More research is definitely warranted.

291fifth

Hmmmmm! Why do I suspect something may not be right about these pieces in spite of their having been slabbed?

InGodWeTrustCoins

Just found this information on the mine itself:
https://westernmininghistory.com/mine-detail/10098357/

TomB

Alternatively, since PCGS has given these a 98 designation, they may simply be lumping the two pieces in with other damaged coins that include graffiti. If so, PCGS might not be making any statement as to when the punches were applied to the coins or by whom. If that is the case then they very well might view the punches as newly done, but placing them into these holders creates confusion.

This is what I think PCGS has done.

yosclimber

Maybe something like a badge for workers in the mine?

CaptHenway

I know nothing about them

That said, I am suspicious concerning them. That Dime circulated a long time before it was counterstamped, but that half dollar did not.

dcarr

@CaptHenway said:
I know nothing about them

That said, I am suspicious concerning them. That Dime circulated a long time before it was counterstamped, but that half dollar did not.

Neither appears to have had much handling wear AFTER the counter-stamping.
I would expect them to have such wear, if genuine territorial vintage.

tokenpro

Perhaps a casual visit to the Brunk catalog (among other sources) would have been in order prior to slabbing them with the implications that go along with the process. Perhaps if a Brunk catalog is not in the reference library a purchase of the same might be in order before slabbing more counterstamps or at least have the phone # of a knowledgeable consultant at hand.

All the services have encountered problems when they drive too far outside of their established lanes without a competent guide -- on the other hand most/all of the services do slab fantasies (but usually not of this sort).

tokenpro

From the Brunk catalog listing (U-32) titled "Union Mine Fantasies":

"The Union Mine fantasies have fooled many collectors for almost two generations. during the 1950's, or perhaps later, numerous coins were stamped with UNION MINE and other words including specious denominations and OREG. TERR. Not only are these pieces totally unlike legitimate nineteenth century merchant countermarks, there is **absolute proof **that they are modern fantasies. Their maker got too greedy. He used the same letter punches to make the Union Mine, Republic Of Texas, and a number of other bogus countermarks. The Union Mine stamps appear on planned (sic) off reverses of US coins. For more info see the Fantasy section ."

These strikes have been a well known series of fantasies (read: fakes) for many years. IIRC, the Union Mine fantasies were featured on a front page story in Numismatic News (or possibly Coin World) as well as being discussed in TAMS and elsewhere. Somewhere I may have the NN/CW story stashed away as (IIRC again) the aftermath was more revealing than the "fantasies" themselves. Fantasies is actually being kind as $$$ were no doubt the driving factor in their creation.

CaptainBlunt

I think there is at least one small bullion bar linked to this entity. It’s stamped value was $24.35. I think it came out of the Lilly Collection and was donated to the Smithsonian. Just because it is still probably in their collection does not mean that it is real. Did it come from Don Keefer, or Paul Franklin, or John Ford Jr, I don’t know who “discovered” it before it ended up in the Lilly Collection. Maybe if you wrote to them they could provide an image….Just referring to my notes taken a long time ago…

Kove

As long as the original coin is genuine, then a Details "damage" holder with no mention of the grafiti text on the PCGS label seems entirely appropriate.

291fifth

@CaptHenway said:
I know nothing about them

That said, I am suspicious concerning them. That Dime circulated a long time before it was counterstamped, but that half dollar did not.

And the half dollar has been holed. A good way to turn a cull coin into a "rarity"?

Namvet69

Well, they are marked as company store scrip at 1 & 5 dollars so there's that. Link indicates the mine discovery date is 1875. Anyone check Tokencatalog.com and Numista?

Cuprinkor

I would forward those pictures to Bob Busby. (TOKENBOB@aol.com). He knows a lot about various exonumia.

Cuprinkor

He's the preeminent expert on Oregon tokens and exonumia.