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ID'ing some ancients

I'm not too fluent with these, how about you? I've got a bunch here that I'm slowly making my way through with the help of this website - https://mrbcoins.com - but I'm stuck on a couple.

These two are Gallienus (Rome 253-268) but which ones?



And this Aurelius (Rome 161-180). But the little card thing says it was struck after his death and I can't pin it down even with a "Seaby #"


Comments

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gallienus: top one is SALVS AVG, second one is ROMAE AETERNAE.

    Marcus Aurelius: that's a very old edition of the Sear (Seaby) number being used there; the numbers are now obsolete. In the millennium edition of the catalogue, that coin would be number 5984; yours is the variant with the thunderbolt in the eagle's talons. wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s5984.html

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Nice. Thank you very much.

    Couple more Romans.. another Gallienus (trophy & captives) & a Tacitus (mars victor). The thing is, there are multiples with those varieties. For the Tacitus, it looks like RIC 29 but mine isn't silver.



  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gallienus the third: the reverse legend is "PAX FVNDATA".

    I wouldn't expect a Tacitus coin to "look silver". By this time in the late Empire, the silver content had fallen to just a couple of percent. Coins with the "XXI" fineness-mark have 4% silver; coins without that mark... have even less. Some of these coins were originally silver-washed, but the "wash" generally doesn't survive being buried for a couple thousand years. If you see one of these coins that look very silvery, they've either been very well preserved (and expertly cleaned), or they've been re-plated in modern times.

    You can tell your economy is in dire straits, when coins with .047 fineness were considered something worth boasting about.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Very cool. Beyond fascinating. I appreciate the help.

    second one is ROMAE AETERNAE.

    The closest I could find by searching "ROMAE AETERNAE" on https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/gallienus/i.html, is this one..

    Here's mine again. What do you think?

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    So far, from the top..

    RIC 610
    RIC ?
    RIC 659
    RIC 652L
    RIC 29

    I think. By the way, is the RIC number THE catalog number to use to ID, or is Sear the standard..?

    Sorry I'm such a newbie, I'm working on it :)

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Another Marcus Aurelius

    This looks like RIC 1321..

    except mine has "CAES" on the left, and 1321 there only has CAE

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    ?


  • 1984worldcoins1984worldcoins Posts: 594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ?

    I can read "conservato" but is far from reality, this coin is done!

    Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2023 1:53PM

    :D

    I've got more :p



  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1984worldcoins said:

    ?

    I can read "conservato" but is far from reality, this coin is done!

    I believe it's IOVI CONSERTATORI AVGG, Diocletian, reverse Jupiter handing Victory to the Emperor.

    @CoinCoins said:
    By the way, is the RIC number THE catalog number to use to ID, or is Sear the standard..?

    RIC is more complete and comprehensive; you're more likely to find a more precise definition in RIC than in Sear V. Or to put it another way: Sear quotes RIC numbers; RIC doesn't quote Sear numbers. Or to put it yet another way: Sear is a dealer's catalogue, aiming to provide a price guide or at least an indication of relative rarity; RIC is purely a scientific reference work for identification.

    Whether you are selling the coins or just cataloguing them for your own reference, it can't hurt to record both.

    @CoinCoins said:
    This looks like RIC 1321..
    except mine has "CAES" on the left, and 1321 there only has CAE

    RIC is a multi-volume opus, compiled over many decades by multiple authors. As such, the standards used to discern when a coin is a "variety" and when a coin is a different "type" (and therefore assigned a different number) changes with each volume. So I can't tell without looking it up whether the "S" moving from left of-portrait to right-of-portrait constitutes a new type or not.

    Unless there are reasons for doing so, Sear tends to lump all legend-spacing varieties into one number.

    @CoinCoins said:

    I've got more :p



    Bottom one is DIVO CLAVDIO, Claudius II Gothicus posthumous type (struck after his death and deification), reverse CONSECRATIO.

    Top one... is kinda melty. I think the portrait might be female?

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    @Sapyx said:

    I believe it's IOVI CONSERTATORI AVGG, Diocletian, reverse Jupiter handing Victory to the Emperor.

    You're good. RIC 324. B)

    RIC is purely a scientific reference work for identification.

    That's what I'm after, I'm just cataloging them :)

    Bottom one is DIVO CLAVDIO, Claudius II Gothicus posthumous type (struck after his death and deification), reverse CONSECRATIO.

    RIC 266

    THANK YOU

    How about these, I've got a few like this and I don't even know where to begin.

    1:

    2:

    3:

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are all "Islamic", in the sense that they all have Arabic writing on them.

    Top one is the most recent; it's "Indian States", or perhaps from the Iran/Afghanistan area. 1700s, plus or minus a century. I'm thinking Iranian, just from the general style.

    The middle one is "mediaeval Islamic"; the notched serifs on the tips of the letters give it away as dating from roughly 1200-1400. Might be Mamluk Egypt, might be Artuqid or Ayyubid from Iraq/Syria.

    The bottom one is the oldest; the Arabic here is written in the archaic "Kufic" script, which most modern Arabic-speakers find difficult to read (kind of like how most modern coin collectors struggle to read blackletter script, or the legends on mediaeval silver coins - same alphabet, but alien writing style). Bronzes from the early Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphate periods (AD 700-900) are difficult to date, as their design was not centrally mandated but rather each city did its own thing. Unfortunately, the mint-name and the date are most likely in the legends around the outer rim of the coin, an area which has not been well-preserved on this example. It's probably from one of the larger Muslim-controlled cities, like Damascus, Baghdad or Cairo.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2023 12:15PM

    B)



    bonus crust..


  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another interesting selection.

    Top: an "Urbs Roma Civic Commemorative". These coins were struck during the reign of Constantine the Great, on the founding of Constantinople as the "Second Rome"; two coin types were made, one (like yours) commemorating Urbs Roma, the original "City of Rome", and a second coin commemorating Constantinopolis. On the obverse of your coin is Roma, on the reverse is the she-wolf with Romulus and Remus, the mythical founders of Rome. The mintmark's a little too corroded for me to identify the city of issue.

    Middle: this is a very, very debased silver tetradrachm from Roman Egypt. The inscriptions on it are in Greek, rather than Latin. The emperor is Carinus. The letters "LA" on the reverse are actually the date, written in Egyptian-Greek notation; LA stands for "Year 1", meaning your coin dates from the first year of Carinus' reign (AD 283).

    Bottom: I'd normally give up if a Late Roman Bronze is faring this poorly, but I think I'm spotting something significant: the beard. Not many Late Roman emperors post-Constantine sported beards; Julian II would be my first assumption. Reverse type is "VOT X MVLT XX in wreath", which is known for Julian II. Getting an RIC number for this one will be impossible without the mintmark, since Late Roman RIC volumes are sorted by mint rather than by emperor.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Very cool. Thanks yet again. Hope this is fun :)

    This one drove me nuts last night. Constantius, GENIO POPVLI ROMANI. I see lots of similar ones but none with the 'S', the star, and that mintmark.


    and of course, here are a couple more.



    Any websites you could recommend? All I'm using is romancoin.info to search text, mrbcoins to get a basic start, then I go to wildwinds to dial it in. What are the best sites? Best books?

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 346 ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2023 4:38AM

    Use this site http://numismatics.org/ocre/identify

    It is essentially RIC online. It helps you search for legend fragments e.g. (asterisk)IMPCONSTANT(asterisk), where (asterisk) means * but this site converts it into italics.

    The search takes getting used to - you often get no results because legends are split by "-" or spacing. So less is more. You can then search for 'standing' (if the figure on the back is standing) or 'horseman' (like your coin above). The idea of 'silver' (as mentioned above) is also a bit loose. Antoniniani are called 'silver' when they're barely billon. Nummi are called bronze because they're meant to be bronze, when they might contain more silver than the silver coins.

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Latest batch:

    Top: Were you looking under Constantius II, or Constantius I? Because the larger size, the simplified mintmark with split officina (that's what the"S" is) and title of NOB CAES rather than PF AVG, all point towards this one being Constantius I.

    Middle: Looks like Constantine the Great. I'm not sure if that large dint in the obverse is a countermark, or just damage/corrosion.

    Bottom: Here's one you're not going to find in any coin catalogue. It's a "barbarous imitation" of a Roman coin, of the soldier-spearing-horseman design. Some of these coins were struck by barbarian tribes on the fringes of Imperial territory, some were struck in ex-Roman places like Britain after the legions retreated. They are poorly understood and largely uncatalogued; it's impossible to say where or when it was struck, other than "some time after AD 353".

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Very nice. New addition to the toolbox. Thank you.

    @Sapyx said:
    Latest batch:

    Top: Were you looking under Constantius II, or Constantius I? Because the larger size, the simplified mintmark with split officina (that's what the"S" is) and title of NOB CAES rather than PF AVG, all point towards this one being Constantius I.

    I checked for it again, Constantius I, and the best I can come up with is Antioch RIC 51 & 57. None are exact. I guess it doesn't really matter, assuming they're all basically the same. I just get OCD with this stuff.

    Middle: Looks like Constantine the Great. I'm not sure if that large dint in the obverse is a countermark, or just damage/corrosion.

    Yup, C-1. RIC 57. That mintmark is RS..

    Bottom: Here's one you're not going to find in any coin catalogue. It's a "barbarous imitation" of a Roman coin, of the soldier-spearing-horseman design. Some of these coins were struck by barbarian tribes on the fringes of Imperial territory, some were struck in ex-Roman places like Britain after the legions retreated. They are poorly understood and largely uncatalogued; it's impossible to say where or when it was struck, other than "some time after AD 353".

    So cool. That makes this one of my favorites. Never heard of these before. NGC has a nice article about them - https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8279/NGC-Ancient-Roman-coins/

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Another batch. I'm getting there.. I've got the bulk of these figured out but I've got a bit left :/

    1. I should know this head by now, and the reverse looks familiar, but.. i dunno..

    2.

    1. It's rough, but the shape must mean something?

    4.

  • I think Valentinian I with Victory advancing, SECVRITAS REIPVBLICAE, probably Cyzicus http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.9.cyz.13A

  • The last looks like a Vespasian provincial from Ascalon with Tyche.

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    I think Valentinian I with Victory advancing, SECVRITAS REIPVBLICAE, probably Cyzicus http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.9.cyz.13A

    Looks good to me. Valentinian it is.

    The last looks like a Vespasian provincial from Ascalon with Tyche.

    Yes, Ascalon with Tyche. I didn't see it in Vespasian, but I think I found it to be a Titus - Askalon RPC 2209

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the latest batch:

    1. You seem to have answers for this one already.

    2. I've never seen an ancient Roman Republic coin with "roadkill damage", but that sure looks like what's going down here. The damage looks ancient, rather than "trowel damage" from more recent times. I think the type is Q. Sinicius and C. Coponius, 49 BC, with the club of Hercules in the centre reverse.

    3. Yes, these "bottle top" coins were deliberately made with this edge. The planchet was apparently cast in this shape, then struck as normal. I think there are several series showing this effect, but it's most likely Seleucid. Do a Google search for "Seleucid serrated bronze" and you'll find plenty of examples about.

    4. Already answered above.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2023 5:34AM
    1. I've never seen an ancient Roman Republic coin with "roadkill damage", but that sure looks like what's going down here. The damage looks ancient, rather than "trowel damage" from more recent times. I think the type is Q. Sinicius and C. Coponius, 49 BC, with the club of Hercules in the centre reverse.

    "Roman - Obverse: Q. SICINIVS III, Reverse: C. COPONIVS. PR. S. C., club of Hercules, arrow & bow - Head of Apollo - 49 BC"

    further...
    "Q. Sicinius and C. Coponius, Denarius, Mint moving with Pompeius, 49 BC
    AR (g 3,83; mm 18; h 3)
    Head of Apollo r., hair tied with band; below, star; before, Q SICINIVS; behind, IIIVIR, Rv. Club upright, on which hangs lion’s skin ; on r., bow and C COPONIVS; on l., arrow and PR S C. Crawford 444/1a; Coponia 1, Sicinia 1; Sydenham 939."

    I've found a handful of examples just like mine through Google, but I can't find it on Wildwinds. I assume it's because there isn't an emperor involved? why can't I find it there?

    1. Yes, these "bottle top" coins were deliberately made with this edge. The planchet was apparently cast in this shape, then struck as normal. I think there are several series showing this effect, but it's most likely Seleucid. Do a Google search for "Seleucid serrated bronze" and you'll find plenty of examples about.

    Still working on this one. Can't find anything solid. This one looks good but there's no info it.


  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    We're getting there.. I've got a Dansco "Coins" #7000 album with 10 pages full of 2x2's (120 coins). Almost all of them have been attributed. Again, these aren't for sale, this is simply a 'passion project' and you guys are a ton of help.. Sapyx, I owe you a beer...

    I'm almost embarrassed to post this one, but it does look familiar... #57:

    Islamic? #67...


    69.. sigh...


    72.. French? maybe? (I was told it might be)


  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinCoins said:
    I've found a handful of examples just like mine through Google, but I can't find it on Wildwinds. I assume it's because there isn't an emperor involved? why can't I find it there?

    It's there. But Wildwinds follows the old tradition of sorting Roman Republican coins by the "gens", or clan/family, of the magistrate named on the coins. In this case you need to go to the Roman Republic section of Wildwinds, and look under "Sicinia". http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/rsc/sicinia/i.html

    Now for your latest set:

    Top #57: that portrait is either Antoninus Pius, or Marcus Aurelius. When it's this well-worn, I have trouble telling them apart.

    Upper-Mid #67: a random "tiny silver Islamic coin" is usually from one of two places: the Emirate of Sind, or the early Ottoman Empire. This coin has been holed and much later repaired - you can see the bright silvery plug in the centre of the coin. And the people in the Ottoman Empire were far more likely to take a small coin, punch a hole in it, and use it for decoration. So, "Ottoman, silver akche, c.1600 (plus or minus a century)" would be my working assumption. Unfortunately, what looks like the date is mostly off-flan; all I can read is the "9".

    Lower-mid #69: we sigh with you. I don't know if further information, beyond "Late Roman nummus, c. AD 400" is possible.

    Bottom #72: The style of lettering points towards the 1400s, again plus or minus a century. My guess would be a jeton, rather than a coin, as it looks very brassy and mediaeval Europe made no brass coins. It might be a base-silver French coin that just came up brassy when cleaned, but I'm leaning towards "jeton" at this point.

    Jetons were not coins, nor were they strictly "tokens" in the modern sense. Rather, they were functionally more like beads on an abacus. They were used on "counting boards" or "exchequers", which mediaeval accountants needed to use to do calculations for complicated financial transactions back in the day when money wasn't decimal, and everybody still counted using Roman numerals. Once card games were invented, they were also used as card-game gambling chits. Jeton creation was highly regulated in France, but everywhere else in Europe simply imported their jetons from Nuremberg, Germany, the centre of European token manufacture.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    B)
    I like the Jeton.

    Ok, here's a few more. More crust.

    84


    85


    90


    94


    Getting there. Only 20 left, out of 150 :)

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not really getting many clues on these last four.

    The second one (85) is Probus, which I only confirmed due to the reverse being VIRTUS PROBI

    The bottom one (94) looks like SECVRITAS REIPVBICAE reverse; the remnant of obverse legend makes me lean towards Valentinian II or Valens.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • Those are some nice interesting coins. Wish I could help. Good luck in your quest for information.

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Nice catch with the reverse on 85. Probus, Emperor on horseback left, holding sceptre and raising right hand. Either RIC 887 or 913.

    Valentinian I or Valens looks good to me for 94. Both have very similar designs. Same era, 364-378 AD.

    I just knocked out a bunch more, I'm almost done.

    95 - reverse looks sort of like Jupiter facing Hercules? maybe not..

    104 - Reverse says Victorinus? VICTORIA AVG? Mintmark = TSA? TS^? I can't find it..

    114 - ???

    119 - ???

  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2023 5:55PM

    This is all I've got left..

    These 3.. Mamluk? Umayyad?
    122

    123

    125

    131 - this doesn't belong with the ancients..

    134 - The 2x2 says "token", all I can make out is "monetar ipubfri". It's old but it's not ancient..

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Again, you've saved the worst till last. Most I can't help much with, except:

    122-125: yes, they're "Islamic coppers". Again, the oldest one is the one with Kufic script, number 123.

    131: the Garuda bird, I believe; I think it's Cambodia, or some place not far away from there in Southeast Asia.

    134: not a token, nor a jeton, but an actual coin. The Latin legend is MONETA REIPVB FRIBURG - the Swiss city-state of Freiburg (also spelled Fribourg). Made of billon, or base-silver.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • CoinCoinsCoinCoins Posts: 678 ✭✭✭

    Very nice. I've had these for a couple years & I always wanted to get them figured out.

    A million thank you's...

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