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For all the toning aficianados. In this forum for a toning discussion.

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I've been collecting Dutch crowns for many years. This 1874 was my first of Willem III. Polished, so not what I want, but it was very sharp, bright silver-white, and cost just a few dollars. I put it naked onto a dusty shelf behind my desk, and forgot about it for more than a decade.
It reappeared today. Look at the colors! So: would you say that this is NT or AT?

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well you all but told us it sat alone so it would confer that it was natural...

    I probably would have guessed natural though as a lot of the AT can be pretty easy to spot. It's usually more deliberate.

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    BucketHeadBucketHead Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2023 11:54PM

    @spyglassdesign said:
    Well you all but told us it sat alone so it would confer that it was natural...

    Well the 2021 Peace Dollar that I set on my window sill in a paper bag for a year was roundly considered AT here.

    Yours is an older coin so it will probably straight grade.

    Cheers.

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    Jzyskowski1Jzyskowski1 Posts: 6,651 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 4:14AM

    @BucketHead
    I never said your 2021 was AT. AT or NT. The only difference is intent. How someone sitting in a grading room decides that is beyond me unless they research the background of every coin submitted they are only guessing.
    Bring it on non believers. Show me I’m wrong 😁

    🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 9:31AM

    @Jzyskowski1 said:
    @BucketHead
    I never said your 2021 was AT. AT or NT. The only difference is intent. How someone sitting in a grading room decides that is beyond me unless they research the background of every coin submitted they are only guessing.
    Bring it on non believers. Show me I’m wrong 😁

    So if I'm ignorant and put a coin in a high sulfur paper bag, it's NT. If you're a chemist and know what sulfur does and put a coin in an identical paper bag, it's AT. Does that seem reasonable?

    And worse, somehow the first coin is collectible, with a premium, and the second coin isn't even collectible.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That coin would be considered AT, if the picture is accurate. The retoning of cleaned/ polished coins is often the result of residual chemicals left on the surface and has a definite look to it.

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Essentially from the grading perspective, if it's been intentionally chemically altered, like most coin doctors do, they will call it AT. If it's been intentionally put in a bag to grade it or accidentally, they can't determine such intent, and should in theory still consider those NT. Even if intentional, it's still technically NT.

    Unfortunately graders are only humans and have to make the best decision they can with the information they have. They can't tell that kind of intent, but if they see patterns of chemical toning, they are usually pretty good at catching that. Typically, AT most of the time it will be either too uneven, or have hard color changes/end of toning, or have a kind of scratched on appearance, like they rubbed something on the surface. NT more often (but not always) has softer color gradients from on color to another, and gently fade out to none.

    I've seen some wild wild NT slabbed coins that look AT from afar, but PCGS still saw enough evidence or lack of evident to call AT.

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    PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 226 ✭✭✭

    Collect what you like. These terms are patently arbitrary. If you're submitting for a grade familiarize yourself with what's "market acceptable."

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