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Why does Wayne Gretzky keep his mouth shut ?

GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 20, 2022 10:42AM in Sports Talk

99 gained 5 pounds from age 18 on in the NHL. #99 would have scored over 1000 goals if he gained 30 lbs of muscle.

Ovechkin has gained 38 pounds from age 18 until now. You play better and longer.

Is anyone going to say anything?


Comments

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2022 6:17AM

    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gretzky didn't need PEDS, he was just that good

  • Options
    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,210 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    Gretzky didn't need PEDS, he was just that good

    Gretzky didn't need to get big, he never hit anyone and McSorley didn't let anyone hit Wayne.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2022 7:08AM

    A. 1983. #66. 6’4. 200

    B. 1994. #66. 6’4. 210

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mario at 6’4 200 gains 10 pounds.
    Ovie at 6’2 200 gains 38 pounds.

    You make up your own minds.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Please don’t accuse me of anything.
    Thank you, or Todd will be notified.
    I’ll let it pass this time.
    I’m not trying to smear anyone.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The NHL has a big PED problem now, and 99 and others before him should say something. That’s all.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2022 7:37AM

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Exactly. There is a quote in there from the 1969 Dodgers team doctor about the PED in the league already. Does that mean steroids are responsible for Koufax's sudden transformation? Steroids were around then.

    How does anyone know if Bobby Orr wasn't taking steroids with his checkered injury history. Maybe that is why he skated so fast lol??

    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didn't, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Please don’t accuse me of anything.
    Thank you, or Todd will be notified.
    I’ll let it pass this time.
    I’m not trying to smear anyone.

    Do you have evidence that Ovechkin used PED? or are you just using hearsay and weight gain over time as your indications of PED use?

    I comment because you have made a number of posts "accusing" Ovechkin of PED use with hearsay and weight gain. The hearsay doesn't even implicate Ovechkin, it implicates physicians who treated Ovechkin.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Exactly. There is a quote in there from the 1969 Dodgers team doctor about the PED in the league already. Does that mean steroids are responsible for Koufax's sudden transformation? Steroids were around then.

    How does anyone know if Bobby Orr wasn't taking steroids with his checkered injury history. Maybe that is why he skated so fast lol??

    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline

    Tom House has also spoken out that steroids were prevalent in MLB by the 70s and probably earlier.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Exactly. There is a quote in there from the 1969 Dodgers team doctor about the PED in the league already. Does that mean steroids are responsible for Koufax's sudden transformation? Steroids were around then.

    How does anyone know if Bobby Orr wasn't taking steroids with his checkered injury history. Maybe that is why he skated so fast lol??

    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline

    Tom House has also spoken out that steroids were prevalent in MLB by the 70s and probably earlier.

    Absolutely. For some reason, people think steroids came into MLB all at one time in the winter of 1993 when offense exploded seemingly overnight the following year.

    They have been around a lot longer. They were administered in the 1960's to players.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Goldenage said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didn't, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Please don’t accuse me of anything.
    Thank you, or Todd will be notified.
    I’ll let it pass this time.
    I’m not trying to smear anyone.

    Do you have evidence that Ovechkin used PED? or are you just using hearsay and weight gain over time as your indications of PED use?

    I comment because you have made a number of posts "accusing" Ovechkin of PED use with hearsay and weight gain. The hearsay doesn't even implicate Ovechkin, it implicates physicians who treated Ovechkin.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Exactly. There is a quote in there from the 1969 Dodgers team doctor about the PED in the league already. Does that mean steroids are responsible for Koufax's sudden transformation? Steroids were around then.

    How does anyone know if Bobby Orr wasn't taking steroids with his checkered injury history. Maybe that is why he skated so fast lol??

    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline

    Tom House has also spoken out that steroids were prevalent in MLB by the 70s and probably earlier.

    Absolutely. For some reason, people think steroids came into MLB all at one time in the winter of 1993 when offense exploded seemingly overnight the following year.

    They have been around a lot longer. They were administered in the 1960's to players.

    very true. it is the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Mantles "injury" in 1961 was due to a botched steroid injection that became infected. PED is nothing new.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Exactly. There is a quote in there from the 1969 Dodgers team doctor about the PED in the league already. Does that mean steroids are responsible for Koufax's sudden transformation? Steroids were around then.

    How does anyone know if Bobby Orr wasn't taking steroids with his checkered injury history. Maybe that is why he skated so fast lol??

    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline

    Tom House has also spoken out that steroids were prevalent in MLB by the 70s and probably earlier.

    Absolutely. For some reason, people think steroids came into MLB all at one time in the winter of 1993 when offense exploded seemingly overnight the following year.

    They have been around a lot longer. They were administered in the 1960's to players.

    very true. it is the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Mantles "injury" in 1961 was due to a botched steroid injection that became infected. PED is nothing new.

    Is it possible that Bobby Orr could have taken steroids when he was getting injured all the time?

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Goldenage said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didn't, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Please don’t accuse me of anything.
    Thank you, or Todd will be notified.
    I’ll let it pass this time.
    I’m not trying to smear anyone.

    Do you have evidence that Ovechkin used PED? or are you just using hearsay and weight gain over time as your indications of PED use?

    I comment because you have made a number of posts "accusing" Ovechkin of PED use with hearsay and weight gain. The hearsay doesn't even implicate Ovechkin, it implicates physicians who treated Ovechkin.

    you have posted this numerous times. it is just hearsay. a dr who treated ovechkin was charged with bringing ped over the boarder. a chiropractor bragged about supplying ped to 2 teams. a former player said lots of NHL players used PED.

    where is the hard evidence against Ovechkin? again, this is just hearsay that doesnt even directly implicate ovechkin.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    seems you are on a bit of a smear campaign on Ovechkin lately.

    Unless you have proof, ie. a failed test, admission or hard evidence, it is nothing but hearsay.

    Steroids entered sport in the 1960s for sure. before that on a more limited basis. There is as much actual evidence that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or any of the other greats used PED as there is Ovechkin has. Weight gain is not evidence of PED use. there is a long line of professional athletes who failed tests who were not big and musclebound.

    I am not saying Ovechkin didnt, but I have no failed test, admission or actual evidence that he did. until then, innocent until proven guilty right?

    Exactly. There is a quote in there from the 1969 Dodgers team doctor about the PED in the league already. Does that mean steroids are responsible for Koufax's sudden transformation? Steroids were around then.

    How does anyone know if Bobby Orr wasn't taking steroids with his checkered injury history. Maybe that is why he skated so fast lol??

    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline

    Tom House has also spoken out that steroids were prevalent in MLB by the 70s and probably earlier.

    Absolutely. For some reason, people think steroids came into MLB all at one time in the winter of 1993 when offense exploded seemingly overnight the following year.

    They have been around a lot longer. They were administered in the 1960's to players.

    very true. it is the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Mantles "injury" in 1961 was due to a botched steroid injection that became infected. PED is nothing new.

    Is it possible that Bobby Orr could have taken steroids when he was getting injured all the time?

    there is exactly the same amount of evidence that Orr took PED as there is that Ovechkin did.

    I suppose there is certainly a possibility...

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, Bobby had that 38-80 pound weight gain that Ovechkin and Vlad Guerrero had.

    👍😂😂😂😂😂

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    Where does Orr rank all time in championships won? Not too high on the list, lol.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    Yeah, Bobby had that 38-80 pound weight gain that Ovechkin and Vlad Guerrero had.

    👍😂😂😂😂😂

    Lance Armstrong din't have the weight gain either ;)

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    Why is this all brushed under the rug, the fact that House was a heavy user in the 60's and 70's?

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    Why is this all brushed under the rug, the fact that House was a heavy user in the 60's and 70's?

    I think it is because over time, older players become superheroes. They reach an untouchable iconic status that is covered in Teflon. People dont want to think badly of their "heroes" and cant imagine they ever would have done anything sketchy.

    also, the press was different back then and wouldn't report negative stories about most entertainers so at the time there was no thought of anything untoward happening.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    there is a very interesting article from ESPN from 2009 that will tell you a lot about early steroid use. the 1963 Chargers were heavy users and Steroids were pretty common in the NFL in the 1960s.

    you have steroids common in the NFL, also being used in MLB in the 1960's. it is not a far stretch to think they were also in use in the NHL during the same decade.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    there is a very interesting article from ESPN from 2009 that will tell you a lot about early steroid use. the 1963 Chargers were heavy users and Steroids were pretty common in the NFL in the 1960s.

    you have steroids common in the NFL, also being used in MLB in the 1960's. it is not a far stretch to think they were also in use in the NHL during the same decade.

    70's Steelers were big on steroids too.

    I agree with everything you said. To recognize the use, it would put sports history into disarray. Fans like to keep it neat and orderly.

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    Why is this all brushed under the rug, the fact that House was a heavy user in the 60's and 70's?

    I think it is because over time, older players become superheroes. They reach an untouchable iconic status that is covered in Teflon. People dont want to think badly of their "heroes" and cant imagine they ever would have done anything sketchy.

    also, the press was different back then and wouldn't report negative stories about most entertainers so at the time there was no thought of anything untoward happening.

    Lawrence Taylor is an admitted serious drug user. PED. Illegal drugs. He cheated drug tests by using other people's urine.

    It is odd how he is hailed still as a hero but Roger Clemens is some type of villain and Clemens looks alike a saint compared to what Taylor was doing....if Clemens did anything at all(who knows for sure).

    Different sports and different HOF criteria, but the criteria to the fans isn't any different when they call Clemens a cheat, immoral, etc..and Taylor is viewed as a God while Clemens, who is the best pitcher ever, the opposite.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Where does Orr rank all time in championships won? Not too high on the list, lol.

    A little higher than you .😂😂😂

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please give the greatest hockey coach ever a call 😂😂😂😂😂

  • Options
    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2022 9:31AM

    @Goldenage said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Where does Orr rank all time in championships won? Not too high on the list, lol.

    A little higher than you .😂😂😂

    Yes, that is the problem...he is only two ahead of me.

    It is YOUR criteria that Championships won is the benchmark of greatness and Orr is very low.

    He spent nearly as many years watching from the couch as I did.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    Why is this all brushed under the rug, the fact that House was a heavy user in the 60's and 70's?

    I think it is because over time, older players become superheroes. They reach an untouchable iconic status that is covered in Teflon. People dont want to think badly of their "heroes" and cant imagine they ever would have done anything sketchy.

    also, the press was different back then and wouldn't report negative stories about most entertainers so at the time there was no thought of anything untoward happening.

    Lawrence Taylor is an admitted serious drug user. PED. Illegal drugs. He cheated drug tests by using other people's urine.

    It is odd how he is hailed still as a hero but Roger Clemens is some type of villain and Clemens looks alike a saint compared to what Taylor was doing....if Clemens did anything at all(who knows for sure).

    Different sports and different HOF criteria, but the criteria to the fans isn't any different when they call Clemens a cheat, immoral, etc..and Taylor is viewed as a God while Clemens, who is the best pitcher ever, the opposite.

    Its true. I guess it is all about perceptions. the problem is, perception is not always reality. people either get a narrative or have it put into their heads by rote repetition and it becomes the "truth" whether it is true or not.

    then you have people throwing baseless accusations around as if they were backed up by actual evidence and it simply muddies the water even more.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @Goldenage said:
    Yeah, Bobby had that 38-80 pound weight gain that Ovechkin and Vlad Guerrero had.

    👍😂😂😂😂😂

    Lance Armstrong din't have the weight gain either ;)

    😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Armstrong was doping, not PEDS.

  • Options
    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @Goldenage said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Where does Orr rank all time in championships won? Not too high on the list, lol.

    A little higher than you .😂😂😂

    Yes, that is the problem...he is only two ahead of me.

    It is YOUR criteria that Championships won is the benchmark of greatness and Orr is very low.

    He spent nearly as many years watching from the couch as I did.

    Prove it !!!!

    Show me where I said whoever won the most championships is the greatest ever in team sports!!!

  • Options

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    Why is this all brushed under the rug, the fact that House was a heavy user in the 60's and 70's?

    I think it is because over time, older players become superheroes. They reach an untouchable iconic status that is covered in Teflon. People dont want to think badly of their "heroes" and cant imagine they ever would have done anything sketchy.

    also, the press was different back then and wouldn't report negative stories about most entertainers so at the time there was no thought of anything untoward happening.

    Lawrence Taylor is an admitted serious drug user. PED. Illegal drugs. He cheated drug tests by using other people's urine.

    It is odd how he is hailed still as a hero but Roger Clemens is some type of villain and Clemens looks alike a saint compared to what Taylor was doing....if Clemens did anything at all(who knows for sure).

    Different sports and different HOF criteria, but the criteria to the fans isn't any different when they call Clemens a cheat, immoral, etc..and Taylor is viewed as a God while Clemens, who is the best pitcher ever, the opposite.

    Its true. I guess it is all about perceptions. the problem is, perception is not always reality. people either get a narrative or have it put into their heads by rote repetition and it becomes the "truth" whether it is true or not.

    then you have people throwing baseless accusations around as if they were backed up by actual evidence and it simply muddies the water even more.

    Much of it comes from a place of bias, like this entire odd back handed 'bobby Orr' is the greatest thread, because the stones are thrown so that nobody can ever eclipse Orr in someone's mind.

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    HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like this thread, I know nothing about hockey. I've never met anyone around here who is a hockey fan. I've never even heard anyone talk about hockey. Hockey might as well be soccer. Or a game played on Mars. No local interest. None. I guess that's probably because the only ice anyone around here ever sees is in a drinking glass or an ice cube tray..... So, I like this thread......It's like reading about some lost primitive tribe in a jungle somewhere and their exotic, if somewhat brutal, society.... Interesting.

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    Armstrong was doping, not PEDS.

    You do know that PED stands for performance-enhancing drugs?

    Armstrong did take drugs that enhanced his performance. he admitted to such.
    EPO--- a drug
    HGH---a drug

    both enhanced his performance as a cycler.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:

    @craig44 said:
    weight gain is not evidence of steroid use. not at all

    Tom House is a well known steroid user from the 60s and 70s. his listed weight in 1969 was 180 pounds. his weight 10 years later, also 180 pounds.

    this is an admitted heavy steroid user.

    weight gain COULD be a result of PED use, but ALL PED use does not result in weight gain.

    Why is this all brushed under the rug, the fact that House was a heavy user in the 60's and 70's?

    I think it is because over time, older players become superheroes. They reach an untouchable iconic status that is covered in Teflon. People dont want to think badly of their "heroes" and cant imagine they ever would have done anything sketchy.

    also, the press was different back then and wouldn't report negative stories about most entertainers so at the time there was no thought of anything untoward happening.

    Lawrence Taylor is an admitted serious drug user. PED. Illegal drugs. He cheated drug tests by using other people's urine.

    It is odd how he is hailed still as a hero but Roger Clemens is some type of villain and Clemens looks alike a saint compared to what Taylor was doing....if Clemens did anything at all(who knows for sure).

    Different sports and different HOF criteria, but the criteria to the fans isn't any different when they call Clemens a cheat, immoral, etc..and Taylor is viewed as a God while Clemens, who is the best pitcher ever, the opposite.

    Its true. I guess it is all about perceptions. the problem is, perception is not always reality. people either get a narrative or have it put into their heads by rote repetition and it becomes the "truth" whether it is true or not.

    then you have people throwing baseless accusations around as if they were backed up by actual evidence and it simply muddies the water even more.

    Much of it comes from a place of bias, like this entire odd back handed 'bobby Orr' is the greatest thread, because the stones are thrown so that nobody can ever eclipse Orr in someone's mind.

    this could very well be true. If so, I suspect we may start seeing some anti-Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux threads in the coming weeks...

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Goldenage said:
    Armstrong was doping, not PEDS.

    You do know that PED stands for performance-enhancing drugs?

    Armstrong did take drugs that enhanced his performance. he admitted to such.
    EPO--- a drug
    HGH---a drug

    both enhanced his performance as a cycler.

    Doping !

  • Options
    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Goldenage said:
    Armstrong was doping, not PEDS.

    You do know that PED stands for performance-enhancing drugs?

    Armstrong did take drugs that enhanced his performance. he admitted to such.
    EPO--- a drug
    HGH---a drug

    both enhanced his performance as a cycler.

    Doping !

    what in the world does this even mean???

    do you somehow disagree that Lance Armstrong used PED?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

This discussion has been closed.