I think a good portion of his late career success can be attributed to improvement as a pitcher. He clearly had better command than previously.
Correct, Ryan had better command of his pitches later on in his career. The reason for that is because he wasn't as strong as he was when he was younger and therefore wasn't throwing as fast.....One the other hand, Koufax got better with age and threw FASTER!....AND had better location control the older he got!...But who wants to think about that?.....
Sorry, that is incorrect. Koufax finally listened to the coaches and quit throwing as hard as he could.
He still had great speed and suddenly he found the strike zone.
I read a good biography on Sandy that explained it.
Great talent, but much of it wasted in his early years, then his elbow got so bad, he could hardly pitch, finally the pain got too much.
He also had some kind of hand injury one year. Blood flow or nerve problem if I remember correctly.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I think a good portion of his late career success can be attributed to improvement as a pitcher. He clearly had better command than previously.
Correct, Ryan had better command of his pitches later on in his career. The reason for that is because he wasn't as strong as he was when he was younger and therefore wasn't throwing as fast.....One the other hand, Koufax got better with age and threw FASTER!....AND had better location control the older he got!...But who wants to think about that?.....
Actually Ryan was physically stronger in his 40's than he was in his 20's.
Ryan was still throwing mid 90's at the top near the end. His command was better as he became more compact with his arm delivery as opposed to when he was younger and had more of a windmill arm swing.
Ryan had the best natural velocity with efficient effort. He didn't need to use a Lincecum or Koufax approach to get to his high velocity(neither of whom had velocity as high as Ryan's), and that is one reason why Lincecum and Koufax both burned out.
Koufax better with age? Huh? He was 31 when he was throwing harder, not 41. Also, an extra ten inches of mound height Koufax got the benefit of, didn't hurt either .
Mets let Ryan go because they didn't know how to coach him. They were dumb. Most teams in the last ten years would have turned a guy like that into a superstar in a couple years.
Ryan actually was born in the wrong era. He would have been a perennial Cy Young contender with the right organization when he was in his early 20's. His stuff and size would play well in any era...and that is one reason why I always give him the edge over statistical similarities like Don Sutton.
Ryan was a pioneer of sort. Kind of like Babe Ruth with hitting home runs. Today's advancements on pitching velocity and command were moved faster along because Nolan Ryan existed decades earlier.
In the book "The Umpire Strikes Back" (GREAT read BTW) former umpire Ron Luciano talks a lot about Ryan. Says he was hands down the fastest thrower, but didn't always know where his pitches were going. He went on to say that Ryan also had a great curve ball and when he was locating it and his fastball at the same time, he was virtually unhittable.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I think a good portion of his late career success can be attributed to improvement as a pitcher. He clearly had better command than previously.
Correct, Ryan had better command of his pitches later on in his career. The reason for that is because he wasn't as strong as he was when he was younger and therefore wasn't throwing as fast.....One the other hand, Koufax got better with age and threw FASTER!....AND had better location control the older he got!...But who wants to think about that?.....
Actually Ryan was physically stronger in his 40's than he was in his 20's.
Ryan was still throwing mid 90's at the top near the end. His command was better as he became more compact with his arm delivery as opposed to when he was younger and had more of a windmill arm swing.
Ryan had the best natural velocity with efficient effort. He didn't need to use a Lincecum or Koufax approach to get to his high velocity(neither of whom had velocity as high as Ryan's), and that is one reason why Lincecum and Koufax both burned out.
Koufax better with age? Huh? He was 31 when he was throwing harder, not 41. Also, an extra ten inches of mound height Koufax got the benefit of, didn't hurt either .
Mets let Ryan go because they didn't know how to coach him. They were dumb. Most teams in the last ten years would have turned a guy like that into a superstar in a couple years.
Ryan actually was born in the wrong era. He would have been a perennial Cy Young contender with the right organization when he was in his early 20's. His stuff and size would play well in any era...and that is one reason why I always give him the edge over statistical similarities like Don Sutton.
Ryan was a pioneer of sort. Kind of like Babe Ruth with hitting home runs. Today's advancements on pitching velocity and command were moved faster along because Nolan Ryan existed decades earlier.
In the book "The Umpire Strikes Back" (GREAT read BTW) former umpire Ron Luciano talks a lot about Ryan. Says he was hands down the fastest thrower, but didn't always know where his pitches were going. He went on to say that Ryan also had a great curve ball and when he was locating it and his fastball at the same time, he was virtually unhittable.
Yes indeed. That curve ball was filthy. I bet every MLB team right now would be giving up the farm if 24 yr old Nolan Ryan were on the trade market. The Mets made a bad trade. It does happen.
Above a poster said the Angels got rid of him which isn't true. He was granted Free Agency and was paid handsomely.
Sorry, that is incorrect. Koufax finally listened to the coaches and quit throwing as hard as he could.
Well, yes and no. It was Roy Campenella who gave Koufax that advice. And yes his control improved and it was the beginning of great things. But the key to the change, which you stated in your post, was that he quit "throwing as hard as he COULD!"....that's important.... By easing up on the majority of his pitches in the early innings he was able conserve strength and then in key situations late in the game throw the heat FASTER than his usual fastball as a changeup. And with better control. That was the pitch baby.....The batter's timing was thrown off from what they had seen in their earlier at bats. They couldn't hit it. And it's also important to know that Koufax's early control problems got worse as the game went along. That's key. An old timer told me once, " I was just sure he was going to throw the ball over the backstop sometime late in the game."
I've long known about the advice Koufax received to ease up on the fastball. As a pitching coach I took it to heart and gave the same advice to many young pitchers. With great success. A young pitcher with a good fastball has the tendency to go out on the mound and just fire away! They burn themselves out as the game progresses. Career wise too. Gotta' tell the youngsters to take something off your pitch.....then....when the time is right....THROW THE HEAT!.....RIGHT DOWN THE PIPE!
Allright,.... I finally get it......according to people around here....Koufax was The Most Over Rated Athlete of All Time.....Only Had a Few Good Years,.....Only good because he pitched off a 15" mound,......Had Control Problems Early In His Career,.....Dodger Stadium Was Built Just For Him.....He Was Washed Up At 30,.....Only Good Because of Pain Killers.....on and on!!!!....Well I agree now......He was no good......BUT, want to know what his His BIGGEST shortcoming was? It's EASY! He didn't pitch for the BOSTON RED SOX!....DUH....Otherwise,.... He would have been the baseball GOAT!!!! Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread! I can see it now.....
Right there with....
Bobby Orr....Hockey
Bill Russell.... Basketball
Tom Brady.... Football
I get it now.....Silly Me.....
GO BOSTON!!!!!
What Else Is There?......Except For.....
BOSTON!!!!
@Hydrant said:
Allright,.... I finally get it......according to people around here....Koufax was The Most Over Rated Athlete of All Time.....Only Had a Few Good Years,.....Only good because he pitched off a 15" mound,......Had Control Problems Early In His Career,.....Dodger Stadium Was Built Just For Him.....He Was Washed Up At 30,.....Only Good Because of Pain Killers.....on and on!!!!....Well I agree now......He was no good......BUT.....His BIGGEST shortcoming? He didn't pitch for the BOSTON RED SOX!...Otherwise,.... He would have been the baseball GOAT!!!! Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread! I can see it now.....
Right there with....
Bobby Orr....Hockey
Bill Russell.... Basketball
Tom Brady.... Football
I get it now.....Silly Me.....
BOSTON!!!!!
Depends where you rate him to see if he is most overrated. If he is rated #1 all time then he is overrated, but if someone rates Jack Morris or Catfish Hunter in the top 100 all time, then they are more overrated than Koufax at #1.
Overrated does not mean bad.
All that stuff you listed are valid reasons as to why he gets overrated, except the pain killer one. He was good because he was good, not because of pain killers.
It was more than a fifteen inch mound BTW .
Hardly anyone puts Bill Russell at #1. Bobby Orr has been put at #1 by one guy, but that has gotten a lot of backlash.
Tom Brady. Yeah, he is at #1 by most...but jeez, kind of hard to argue against that one.
Swell, With all due respect..... Did you ever see Koufax or Ryan pitch?.....I mean at the ballpark...... I don't think so......Anyway, I did. Believe me brother, no comparison between the two......Difference between night and day.....
You Had To Be There. Whatever.......
I'll say this though......I always thought that baseball was The National Pastime....But like a lot of things, Like my opinion of Koufax, I was wrong.......The older I get I realize that The REAL National Pastime is dumping on California. San Francisco and Los Angeles in particular.......There's never a legitimate reason California teams win .......It NEVER has anything to do with on field performance..... SOMETHING ELSE caused it. ALWAYS!....
.....Actually Ryan was physically stronger in his 40's than he was in his 20's.....
Wow! That's a new one. Never that before about anybody! I wish it would have been the case with me personally!.... When I was in my 40's I was a physical shadow of myself in my 20's. If I had access to Nolan's anti-aging secret at the time........The Lovely Mrs Hydrant™ would have been the happiest girl on the Planet!!!!!
Also, an extra ten inches of mound height Koufax got the benefit
Actually, it was 5".
In 1904 the rule was adopted that the mound be no higher than 15" above the baselines. The rule was changed in 1969 to 10". .....5".
Ryan actually was born in the wrong era.....
He would have been a perennial Cy Young contender...
Blame his mother's bad timing for that.
Cy Young made his debut in1890 for the Cleveland Spiders. At that time there was NO pitching mound...Maybe Nolan could have been ever better under those conditions!
Ryan also had a great curve ball and when he was locating it and his fastball at the same time, he was virtually unhittable.
.....when he was locating it?......Koufax's curve ball was BETTER......It wasn't "VIRTUALLY" un hittable....Nobody could hit it......virtual or not.....It was straight out un-hitable....And......Koufax was The master at "LOCATING" his curve ball.....WHAT A FADE OUT!!!!!.....
Hey! I was there....in person.....I watched them both....You weren't...... If Ryan was better than Koufax I would have no problem saying so.. No skin off my nose! . Koufax was Light Years better than Noly.....This is a JOKE!....I Can't Stop Laughing!😂
@Hydrant said:
Allright,.... I finally get it......according to people around here....Koufax was The Most Over Rated Athlete of All Time.....Only Had a Few Good Years,.....Only good because he pitched off a 15" mound,......Had Control Problems Early In His Career,.....Dodger Stadium Was Built Just For Him.....He Was Washed Up At 30,.....Only Good Because of Pain Killers.....on and on!!!!....Well I agree now......He was no good......BUT, want to know what his His BIGGEST shortcoming was? It's EASY! He didn't pitch for the BOSTON RED SOX!....DUH....Otherwise,.... He would have been the baseball GOAT!!!! Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread! I can see it now.....
Right there with....
Bobby Orr....Hockey
Bill Russell.... Basketball
Tom Brady.... Football
I get it now.....Silly Me.....
GO BOSTON!!!!!
What Else Is There?......Except For.....
BOSTON!!!!
Oh, Brother! What Was I THINKING?!?!😵
The GOAT Pitcher!
OBVIOUSLY!
hey, your pretty close there. Its just that Clemens is the GOAT pitcher!
It all goes back to how you interpret the title of the thread. It says who was the greatest? I take that to mean who was better in their prime and is why I took Koufax.
Others factor in length of career which I don’t understand how that translates to greatness.
Koufax had a short career but long enough to prove greatness as evidenced by the 3 cy young awards.
hey, your pretty close there. Its just that Clemens is the GOAT pitcher!
You got me on this one Craigy.....What was I thinking?...BUT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!
Smokey Joe Wood is the GOAT pitcher ....
Amazing career and story!....He injured his arm when he was a pitcher and then he became A Hell of a good hitting and fielding outfielder! Kind of like the Babe!.....
GO BOSTON!
1948 swell Robinson
Thanks for that chart showing runs saved above league average.
Randy’s numbers are amazing and he dominates Ryan in that category.
Randy Johnson was my favorite pitcher to watch all time.
Ryan actually was born in the wrong era. He would have been a perennial Cy Young contender with the right organization when he was in his early 20's. His stuff and size would play well in any era...and that is one reason why I always give him the edge over statistical similarities like Don Sutton.
I hope no one ever challenges you on this. I've never heard anyone attempt to compare Sutton to Ryan. I believe Ryan to be horribly overrated, but I fully remember discussion as to whether Sutton would be the first 300 game winner not enshrined.
Ryan actually was born in the wrong era. He would have been a perennial Cy Young contender with the right organization when he was in his early 20's. His stuff and size would play well in any era...and that is one reason why I always give him the edge over statistical similarities like Don Sutton.
I hope no one ever challenges you on this. I've never heard anyone attempt to compare Sutton to Ryan. I believe Ryan to be horribly overrated, but I fully remember discussion as to whether Sutton would be the first 300 game winner not enshrined.
BTW, if you want to look at two pitchers with superficial similarity but not even remotely close in reality, compare Curt Schilling and Bob Welch.
@Darin said:
It all goes back to how you interpret the title of the thread. It says who was the greatest? I take that to mean who was better in their prime and is why I took Koufax.
Others factor in length of career which I don’t understand how that translates to greatness.
Koufax had a short career but long enough to prove greatness as evidenced by the 3 cy young awards.
Exactly.
I climbed Mount Everest in 9 hours in my 20s, 30’s,40’s,50’s and 60’s .
You climbed it in 5 hours only once in your 30s.
I’m greater only because I did it more often and when I was older, but you did it far better than me!!!
Martinez run in the late 90s was probably the most dominant 4 year stretch ever. I watched nearly all of his starts and he was just lights out. especially considering the era he was pitching and in the AL east.
At this point I don't need convincing..... Pedro was way, way better than Koufax!......Hell, Everyone is better than Koufax! My Grandmother had a better fastball than Koufax! Koufax was the most overrated athlelte of all time. The only thing that made him any good was that he had a custom stadium built just for him.
WHAT A TROOPER!
PITCHING WITH A BLOODY LIP!!!
AND...BLOOD ON HIS JERSEY!!!!
WHAT A MAN!!!!
Nolan Ryan!.....AMERICAN HERO!!!
If Only Nolan Would Have Been There......
Off topic....But sports related....
This is the flag raising on Iwo Jima, 1945.
My Uncle Bob was there. 4th. Division USMC..Second Wave on the beach.. Hardest hit...There were 223 Men in his company..... only 8 Marines survived not killed or wounded. He was one of the 8.
I love that man....Think about him every day. He was an Angel fan...Right before he died he wanted to go see Bo Jackson play at Anaheim Stadium...... So we did.....He liked beer!....What Marine doesn't?...... Anyway,.... After the game he showed me the hidden quick exit out of the parking lot on to Katella Ave..I put it all together later and figured it out......He knew how to GET OUT QUICK!...A knack that probably saved his life when he was a 22 year old kid on Iwo Jima!... .....
We got it easy Boys......
Don't Complain..... Ever.....
Now. Let's get back the important stuff......
Koufax or Ryan?.....
@Hydrant said:
Off topic....But sports related....
This is the flag raising on Iwo Jima, 1945.
My Uncle Bob was there. 4th. Division USMC..Second Wave on the beach.. Hardest hit...There were 223 Men in his company..... only 8 Marines survived not killed or wounded. He was one of the 8.
I love that man....Think about him every day. He was an Angel fan...Right before he died he wanted to go see Bo Jackson play at Anaheim Stadium...... So we did.....He liked beer!....What Marine doesn't?...... Anyway,.... After the game he showed me the hidden quick exit out of the parking lot on to Katella Ave..I put it all together later and figured it out......He knew how to GET OUT QUICK!...A knack that probably saved his life when he was a 22 year old kid on Iwo Jima!... .....
We got it easy Boys......
Don't Complain..... Ever.....
Now. Let's get back the important stuff......
Koufax or Ryan?.....
Tremendous respect there with your Uncle and Iwo Jima. I like the little tie in you put in with the hidden exit.
The Ryan Koufax stuff and sports talk is just bar room banter. Busting chops, laughing at one line zingers.
It is also interesting though too. Studying the game itself, societal impacts on the game, rules both written and unwritten that can cause variances among players, etc...
It keeps the mind sharp by thinking and putting together points and counterpoints.
You are absolutely correct. It pales in comparison to what really matters. While we argue about the merits of pitchers, there is someone searching for their next meal. We sit and marvel at a $5,000 piece of cardboard we own, while someone else sees a can of tuna fish as gold. It is a cruel world. In the grand scheme of things we are all peasants. If someone is in a position of prosperity, then knowing how lucky they are most certainly should be in their head as one of the driving forces of how they treat others.
Even people who seem to have it made are not immune to true heartache though. A wealthy person seeing a loved one deteriorate is just as hard on them as the less fortunate experience.
In the end, we all go through heartache, we live dong the best we can, and then die. We have to have fun along the way whenever the opportunity presents and never regret that.
Very thoughtful and thought provoking post, Swell Robinson. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks. This has been a good thread.....and I must admit that I've just been playing devil's advocate somewhat. However, for reasons, I never really had much of a high opinion about Ryan. Its personal. I admit it. I think it's because I had such high expectations when he came over to the Angels. Too high. I went to games that he pitched in every chance I got. He was just too inconsistent. Great one night and a flop the next.....It was a letdown.... As far as Koufax......I saw him pitch when I was a young boy. I was a starry eyed kid and he could do no wrong. A baseball God. So, I thought he was greatest thing ever. But I know that my opinion is based on childhood fantasies. But I can't help it....That's just the way it is.....I guess it has something to do with holding on to memories of long ago. Memories of a kid who loved the Dodgers and BASEBALL!.... BATTER UP!
@Hydrant said:
Very thoughtful and thought provoking post, Swell Robinson. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks. This has been a good thread.....and I must admit that I've just been playing devil's advocate somewhat. However, for reasons, I never really had much of a high opinion about Ryan. Its personal. I admit it. I think it's because I had such high expectations when he came over to the Angels. Too high. I went to games that he pitched in every chance I got. He was just too inconsistent. Great one night and a flop the next.....It was a letdown.... As far as Koufax......I saw him pitch when I was a young boy. I was a starry eyed kid and he could do no wrong. A baseball God. So, I thought he was greatest thing ever. But I know that my opinion is based on childhood fantasies. But I can't help it....That's just the way it is.....I guess it has something to do with holding on to memories of long ago. Memories of a kid who loved the Dodgers and BASEBALL!.... BATTER UP!
I think that is a fabulous explanation of your thought process.
Comments
Sorry, that is incorrect. Koufax finally listened to the coaches and quit throwing as hard as he could.
He still had great speed and suddenly he found the strike zone.
I read a good biography on Sandy that explained it.
Great talent, but much of it wasted in his early years, then his elbow got so bad, he could hardly pitch, finally the pain got too much.
He also had some kind of hand injury one year. Blood flow or nerve problem if I remember correctly.
In the book "The Umpire Strikes Back" (GREAT read BTW) former umpire Ron Luciano talks a lot about Ryan. Says he was hands down the fastest thrower, but didn't always know where his pitches were going. He went on to say that Ryan also had a great curve ball and when he was locating it and his fastball at the same time, he was virtually unhittable.
Yes indeed. That curve ball was filthy. I bet every MLB team right now would be giving up the farm if 24 yr old Nolan Ryan were on the trade market. The Mets made a bad trade. It does happen.
Above a poster said the Angels got rid of him which isn't true. He was granted Free Agency and was paid handsomely.
Well, yes and no. It was Roy Campenella who gave Koufax that advice. And yes his control improved and it was the beginning of great things. But the key to the change, which you stated in your post, was that he quit "throwing as hard as he COULD!"....that's important.... By easing up on the majority of his pitches in the early innings he was able conserve strength and then in key situations late in the game throw the heat FASTER than his usual fastball as a changeup. And with better control. That was the pitch baby.....The batter's timing was thrown off from what they had seen in their earlier at bats. They couldn't hit it. And it's also important to know that Koufax's early control problems got worse as the game went along. That's key. An old timer told me once, " I was just sure he was going to throw the ball over the backstop sometime late in the game."
I've long known about the advice Koufax received to ease up on the fastball. As a pitching coach I took it to heart and gave the same advice to many young pitchers. With great success. A young pitcher with a good fastball has the tendency to go out on the mound and just fire away! They burn themselves out as the game progresses. Career wise too. Gotta' tell the youngsters to take something off your pitch.....then....when the time is right....THROW THE HEAT!.....RIGHT DOWN THE PIPE!
Allright,.... I finally get it......according to people around here....Koufax was The Most Over Rated Athlete of All Time.....Only Had a Few Good Years,.....Only good because he pitched off a 15" mound,......Had Control Problems Early In His Career,.....Dodger Stadium Was Built Just For Him.....He Was Washed Up At 30,.....Only Good Because of Pain Killers.....on and on!!!!....Well I agree now......He was no good......BUT, want to know what his His BIGGEST shortcoming was? It's EASY! He didn't pitch for the BOSTON RED SOX!....DUH....Otherwise,.... He would have been the baseball GOAT!!!! Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread! I can see it now.....
Right there with....
Bobby Orr....Hockey
Bill Russell.... Basketball
Tom Brady.... Football
I get it now.....Silly Me.....
GO BOSTON!!!!!
What Else Is There?......Except For.....
BOSTON!!!!
Oh, Brother! What Was I THINKING?!?!😵
The GOAT Pitcher!
OBVIOUSLY!
Depends where you rate him to see if he is most overrated. If he is rated #1 all time then he is overrated, but if someone rates Jack Morris or Catfish Hunter in the top 100 all time, then they are more overrated than Koufax at #1.
Overrated does not mean bad.
All that stuff you listed are valid reasons as to why he gets overrated, except the pain killer one. He was good because he was good, not because of pain killers.
It was more than a fifteen inch mound BTW
.
Hardly anyone puts Bill Russell at #1. Bobby Orr has been put at #1 by one guy, but that has gotten a lot of backlash.
Tom Brady. Yeah, he is at #1 by most...but jeez, kind of hard to argue against that one.
PS
You forgot the expanded strike zone.
Swell, With all due respect..... Did you ever see Koufax or Ryan pitch?.....I mean at the ballpark...... I don't think so......Anyway, I did. Believe me brother, no comparison between the two......Difference between night and day.....
You Had To Be There. Whatever.......
I'll say this though......I always thought that baseball was The National Pastime....But like a lot of things, Like my opinion of Koufax, I was wrong.......The older I get I realize that The REAL National Pastime is dumping on California. San Francisco and Los Angeles in particular.......There's never a legitimate reason California teams win .......It NEVER has anything to do with on field performance..... SOMETHING ELSE caused it. ALWAYS!....
Maybe this is the reason they ever win....
Just Another Day In Paradise!
GO BOSTON!
.....Actually Ryan was physically stronger in his 40's than he was in his 20's.....
Wow! That's a new one. Never that before about anybody! I wish it would have been the case with me personally!.... When I was in my 40's I was a physical shadow of myself in my 20's. If I had access to Nolan's anti-aging secret at the time........The Lovely Mrs Hydrant™ would have been the happiest girl on the Planet!!!!!
Also, an extra ten inches of mound height Koufax got the benefit
Actually, it was 5".
In 1904 the rule was adopted that the mound be no higher than 15" above the baselines. The rule was changed in 1969 to 10". .....5".
He would have been a perennial Cy Young contender...
Blame his mother's bad timing for that.
Cy Young made his debut in1890 for the Cleveland Spiders. At that time there was NO pitching mound...Maybe Nolan could have been ever better under those conditions!
Ryan also had a great curve ball and when he was locating it and his fastball at the same time, he was virtually unhittable.
.....when he was locating it?......Koufax's curve ball was BETTER......It wasn't "VIRTUALLY" un hittable....Nobody could hit it......virtual or not.....It was straight out un-hitable....And......Koufax was The master at "LOCATING" his curve ball.....WHAT A FADE OUT!!!!!.....
Hey! I was there....in person.....I watched them both....You weren't...... If Ryan was better than Koufax I would have no problem saying so.. No skin off my nose! . Koufax was Light Years better than Noly.....This is a JOKE!....I Can't Stop Laughing!😂
hey, your pretty close there. Its just that Clemens is the GOAT pitcher!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It all goes back to how you interpret the title of the thread. It says who was the greatest? I take that to mean who was better in their prime and is why I took Koufax.
Others factor in length of career which I don’t understand how that translates to greatness.
Koufax had a short career but long enough to prove greatness as evidenced by the 3 cy young awards.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
You got me on this one Craigy.....What was I thinking?...BUT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!
Smokey Joe Wood is the GOAT pitcher ....
Amazing career and story!....He injured his arm when he was a pitcher and then he became A Hell of a good hitting and fielding outfielder! Kind of like the Babe!.....
GO BOSTON!
1948 swell Robinson
Thanks for that chart showing runs saved above league average.
Randy’s numbers are amazing and he dominates Ryan in that category.
Randy Johnson was my favorite pitcher to watch all time.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
😁
I hope no one ever challenges you on this. I've never heard anyone attempt to compare Sutton to Ryan. I believe Ryan to be horribly overrated, but I fully remember discussion as to whether Sutton would be the first 300 game winner not enshrined.
Just for fun, compare Koufax from 1963-66 to Martinez from 1997-2000.
https://stathead.com/tiny/ErdUx
One of these is vastly superior to the other.
BTW, if you want to look at two pitchers with superficial similarity but not even remotely close in reality, compare Curt Schilling and Bob Welch.
Exactly.
I climbed Mount Everest in 9 hours in my 20s, 30’s,40’s,50’s and 60’s .
You climbed it in 5 hours only once in your 30s.
I’m greater only because I did it more often and when I was older, but you did it far better than me!!!
C’mon man
Martinez run in the late 90s was probably the most dominant 4 year stretch ever. I watched nearly all of his starts and he was just lights out. especially considering the era he was pitching and in the AL east.
Pedro > Koufax
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
At this point I don't need convincing..... Pedro was way, way better than Koufax!......Hell, Everyone is better than Koufax! My Grandmother had a better fastball than Koufax! Koufax was the most overrated athlelte of all time. The only thing that made him any good was that he had a custom stadium built just for him.
😵
Can never question Ryan's toughness - played right through getting hit in the face with a line drive off of Bo Jacksons bat........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
WHAT A TROOPER!
PITCHING WITH A BLOODY LIP!!!
AND...BLOOD ON HIS JERSEY!!!!
WHAT A MAN!!!!
Nolan Ryan!.....AMERICAN HERO!!!
If Only Nolan Would Have Been There......
Off topic....But sports related....
This is the flag raising on Iwo Jima, 1945.
My Uncle Bob was there. 4th. Division USMC..Second Wave on the beach.. Hardest hit...There were 223 Men in his company..... only 8 Marines survived not killed or wounded. He was one of the 8.
I love that man....Think about him every day. He was an Angel fan...Right before he died he wanted to go see Bo Jackson play at Anaheim Stadium...... So we did.....He liked beer!....What Marine doesn't?...... Anyway,.... After the game he showed me the hidden quick exit out of the parking lot on to Katella Ave..I put it all together later and figured it out......He knew how to GET OUT QUICK!...A knack that probably saved his life when he was a 22 year old kid on Iwo Jima!... .....
We got it easy Boys......
Don't Complain..... Ever.....
Now. Let's get back the important stuff......
Koufax or Ryan?.....
Tremendous respect there with your Uncle and Iwo Jima. I like the little tie in you put in with the hidden exit.
The Ryan Koufax stuff and sports talk is just bar room banter. Busting chops, laughing at one line zingers.
It is also interesting though too. Studying the game itself, societal impacts on the game, rules both written and unwritten that can cause variances among players, etc...
It keeps the mind sharp by thinking and putting together points and counterpoints.
You are absolutely correct. It pales in comparison to what really matters. While we argue about the merits of pitchers, there is someone searching for their next meal. We sit and marvel at a $5,000 piece of cardboard we own, while someone else sees a can of tuna fish as gold. It is a cruel world. In the grand scheme of things we are all peasants. If someone is in a position of prosperity, then knowing how lucky they are most certainly should be in their head as one of the driving forces of how they treat others.
Even people who seem to have it made are not immune to true heartache though. A wealthy person seeing a loved one deteriorate is just as hard on them as the less fortunate experience.
In the end, we all go through heartache, we live dong the best we can, and then die. We have to have fun along the way whenever the opportunity presents and never regret that.
Very thoughtful and thought provoking post, Swell Robinson. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks. This has been a good thread.....and I must admit that I've just been playing devil's advocate somewhat. However, for reasons, I never really had much of a high opinion about Ryan. Its personal. I admit it. I think it's because I had such high expectations when he came over to the Angels. Too high. I went to games that he pitched in every chance I got. He was just too inconsistent. Great one night and a flop the next.....It was a letdown.... As far as Koufax......I saw him pitch when I was a young boy. I was a starry eyed kid and he could do no wrong. A baseball God. So, I thought he was greatest thing ever. But I know that my opinion is based on childhood fantasies. But I can't help it....That's just the way it is.....I guess it has something to do with holding on to memories of long ago. Memories of a kid who loved the Dodgers and BASEBALL!.... BATTER UP!
excellent post Swell. very well put.
I have absolutely nothing but first-world problems. In the big scheme of things, this is just fun banter.
but fun nonetheless.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think that is a fabulous explanation of your thought process.