Statistical measurements of baseball fielding are less valid than measuring players in football, basketball, and hockey with statistics. The pitcher is 90% of the defense. The pitcher is the commodity.
This is simply not true.
While I mostly agree with 1948's overall point, I do agree that the statement that the pitcher is 90% of the defense is simply not true. Pitching is certainly the majority of the defense, and I could probably be convinced that it's as much as 75% of it, but it's not 90%.
For reasons that I've gone through before, and which 1948 also addresses here - and this is 1948's larger point - the defensive statistics on bb-ref - WAR and its sub-categories - are also simply not true. Things that affect the number of putouts and assists include number of strikeouts, fly balls vs. ground balls, LHP vs. RHP, number of runners on base, and others. WAR, or Zone Runs, etc., don't account for these things, and can move around randomly from one season to the next. Great defensive ability also affects WAR, etc., but there is no way to know whether a high (or low) defensive WAR for any given player is reflecting great (or poor) defensive ability, or other things completely out of the defender's control.
Regarding NHL +/-, it's similar to MLB defensive stats in some ways. If a player is +40 or -40, then sure, there's a fair chance that the player is very good or very bad. But if one player is +10 and another is -10, that's extremely weak evidence that the first player is better than the second player. On a team with a terrible goalie, every player, if they play regularly, will be minus for the season. Put me in goal and Wayne Gretzky would be minus year in and year out. The one relatively useful way to use +/- is within a team within a season. If one Red Wing forward is +10 in 2007 and another Red Wing forward is -10 in 2007, that's evidence (still far from proof) that forward 1 is better than forward 2. Those two players had the same goalies and the same defensemen (for the most part), so the comparison is close to apples to apples. But, a plus or minus is not generally awarded on special teams; only short-handed goals result in +/-. So if one player plays on power play but not penalty kill, he can never receive a plus, but can receive a minus. A player who plays only on penalty kill but not on power play can receive only a plus, never a minus. Bottom line, to use +/- to compare a center in 1968 to a center in 2018 is probably useless, unless the gap between them is enormous. But if the +/- gap is enormous, surely the other stats already reflected the difference in their abilities.
@georgebailey2 said:
With regard to fielding in baseball, I don't think there will ever be enough statistical data to come up with anything definitive.
1) One can only field balls that are hit to them; and
2) Not all balls hit to them are equal.
Say you have two shortstops. Player A may have a better arm and plays a bit deeper than Player B. Consequently, if the circumstances were IDENTICAL, Player A might get to a few more balls than Player B. Of course, there is nothing identical, so that perception would most likely be left up to the eye test.
Similarly, say both players are like Player A. Again, circumstances are not identical. A ball hit 10 feet to a player's right with an exit velocity of 85 mph is different than one at 105 mph. The first may get fielded while the 2nd goes through. How do you measure that?
Ironically, fielding percentages and Gold Gloves (when the writers aren't lazy and actually put some though into it) may be the best barometers. Fielding percentage takes all of the chances (assists and putouts) that a player was able to make successfully plus all the chances that were deemed playable in which they failed. The Gold Glove Award should then compensate for the eye test of whether Player A had better range and/or was able to complete more difficult plays.
Total chances may be an indication of range, but it may not be. There are games where a fielder, based upon circumstances, get a ton of chances and others where they could stare at their navel for nine innings.
All I can definitively say is I know when a guy sucks.
@thisistheshow said:
I am only maybe 20% into this thread, but I want to make a comment before reading the rest (which I won't be able to do until later).
The pushback against Orr as GOAT reminds me of the pushback I receive against my Bird as GOAT opinion.
That's because neither are GOATS.
Loved both of them, but neither can (imo) be the greatest.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
What about Smokey Joe Wood? Why isnt he considered the GOAT pitcher? He had about as good a season as anyone ever had in 1912 and then injured his arm.
Career Brevity. He didn't do it long enough. there is no credit given for what ifs or should have beens.
@craig44 said:
what were Orr's PS for his age 31 season? how about 32? or 36? or 33?
all the other greats Orr is being compared to produced after age 30. Bobby stopped producing, for all intents and purposes, after age 27.
No.
I compared Orr’s best PS seasons during his prime to Gretzky’s five best during his prime.
Orr is the clear winner in 1v1
2v2 3v3 4v4 and 5v5 best.
He actually blows him away in all five prime year seasons.
that is only 5 seasons. 5 seasons does not a career make. at least not one that can be from a player being considered for GOAT status.
Scotty Bowman disagrees.
Art Ross and Selke in the same season ? Never happened.
Art Ross and Norris in the same season ? Only twice. By who ?
Bobby Orr
Only player to dominate both ends of the ice with trophy proof as the absolute best.
Only player
Scotty agreed with this message
So what is your cutoff for career brevity by a GOAT candidate? 7 HOF seasons? 5? 3?
It looks to me as though Orr had 6 HOF seasons. He had one stuck in the middle where he missed 19 games i think.
Hall of Famer for sure. All time great certainly. greatest of all time? Nah. career too short. not enough durability.
Look, you have to take into account that I scored just as many goals after age 30 as Bobby Orr did.
Same thing with Gronk…. Not enough durability, too many missed games. Gonzalez played twice as many games at a very high level. And
Kelce will end up playing many more games than gronk as well.
@Goldenage said:
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
@Goldenage said:
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
That 3 years is a contract/bonuses/benefits issue and not a health one.
@Goldenage said:
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
That 3 years is a contract/bonuses/benefits issue and not a health one.
All positions get dropped after 3 years.
It’s a money thing.
Are you disagreeing that Professional football is a more brutal sport than ice hockey?
@Goldenage said:
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
That 3 years is a contract/bonuses/benefits issue and not a health one.
All positions get dropped after 3 years.
It’s a money thing.
Are you disagreeing that Professional football is a more brutal sport than ice hockey?
In Orr’s day hockey was much more brutal. Ever see football players take off helmets and punch each other with bare fists ? Orr fought A LOT.
Ever see a football player get smashed into wooden boards night after night with little padding? Hockey players skate faster than football players run.
Heck, even MMA fighters don’t fight with bare knuckles
@craig44 said:
What about Smokey Joe Wood? Why isnt he considered the GOAT pitcher? He had about as good a season as anyone ever had in 1912 and then injured his arm.
Career Brevity. He didn't do it long enough. there is no credit given for what ifs or should have beens.
Harmon Killebrew faced (among others) Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax. He stated on many occasions that Herb Score threw "harder" than either of those guys and in fact anyone he ever faced.
Score.........GOAT?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Goldenage said:
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
That 3 years is a contract/bonuses/benefits issue and not a health one.
All positions get dropped after 3 years.
It’s a money thing.
Are you disagreeing that Professional football is a more brutal sport than ice hockey?
I would say some of the hockey hits are worse because the players are going faster, but for football players there's more hitting. Running backs used to get hot a lot, but not much running anymore.
The way the NFL is going, it'll be "two hand touch" a few years from now.
Saw a Vikings receiver get popped by a Jets safety after a catch over the middle last week. Nice clean HARD hit, a little high, but not a headhunter hit.
I knew it was coming........"Personal foul, unnecessary roughness".
Really? Almost felt like they should have declined it.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Goldenage said:
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
That 3 years is a contract/bonuses/benefits issue and not a health one.
All positions get dropped after 3 years.
It’s a money thing.
Are you disagreeing that Professional football is a more brutal sport than ice hockey?
In Orr’s day hockey was much more brutal. Ever see football players take off helmets and punch each other with bare fists ? Orr fought A LOT.
Ever see a football player get smashed into wooden boards night after night with little padding? Hockey players skate faster than football players run.
Heck, even MMA fighters don’t fight with bare knuckles
I’m out. Very silly now.
If Hockey is a tougher sport than NFL football, how in the world can players bodies stand up to 82 regular season games, preseason and postseason? over 100 games a season. There is no way on earth Hockey is more physically taxing than Football. It took years of bargaining to get a 17 regular-season game added to the schedule.
@craig44 said:
What about Smokey Joe Wood? Why isnt he considered the GOAT pitcher? He had about as good a season as anyone ever had in 1912 and then injured his arm.
Career Brevity. He didn't do it long enough. there is no credit given for what ifs or should have beens.
Harmon Killebrew faced (among others) Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax. He stated on many occasions that Herb Score threw "harder" than either of those guys and in fact anyone he ever faced.
Score.........GOAT?
Good point on Score. He was a beast. for a minute.
Yes, at least four if you are saying he was so much greater and so much faster than everyone else on the ice. Two titles out of 12 years for a guy in a sport where one man can make a big difference, I would expect more than two titles considering the accolades you are heaping upon him.
Per your own philosophy, championships are what matters. Not that I agree with that, but you believe it.
As for Jim Brown, why is it assumed that he is the greatest Running back of all time? That isn't a forgone conclusion.
If Hockey is a tougher sport than NFL football, how in the world can players bodies stand up to 82 regular season games, preseason and postseason? over 100 games a season. There is no way on earth Hockey is more physically taxing than Football. It took years of bargaining to get a 17 regular-season game added to the schedule.
>
>
I think hockey players are the toughest players (maybe rugby) of all.
Last year Wild player Matt Dumba hit an opponent in the face with a wicked slap shot. Blood and teeth all over the ice. The picture of the guy after the game looked like something out of a horror movie. The guy was playing a few days later.
Of course if you have ever been on a football field with artificial turf, you won't believe people play football on concrete covered with a little indoor/outdoor carpeting.
Ice is pretty hard too.
Arguing about who is tougher seems a little silly.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
Very well said and all valid points
All very well said as well.
......
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
I am only maybe 20% into this thread, but I want to make a comment before reading the rest (which I won't be able to do until later).
The pushback against Orr as GOAT reminds me of the pushback I receive against my Bird as GOAT opinion.
Scotty Bowman disagrees.
Art Ross and Selke in the same season ? Never happened.
Art Ross and Norris in the same season ? Only twice. By who ?
Bobby Orr
Only player to dominate both ends of the ice with trophy proof as the absolute best.
Only player
Scotty agreed with this message
Scotty Bowman’s school for understanding the game of hockey better is now open. My friends here should consider enrolling.
Gordie trying to catch Bobby was like
this show you guys enjoyed as kids
That's because neither are GOATS.
Loved both of them, but neither can (imo) be the greatest.
Oh Hell - I prefere Mini Goats...........TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!!!!!!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
So what is your cutoff for career brevity by a GOAT candidate? 7 HOF seasons? 5? 3?
It looks to me as though Orr had 6 HOF seasons. He had one stuck in the middle where he missed 19 games i think.
Hall of Famer for sure. All time great certainly. greatest of all time? Nah. career too short. not enough durability.
Look, you have to take into account that I scored just as many goals after age 30 as Bobby Orr did.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What about Smokey Joe Wood? Why isnt he considered the GOAT pitcher? He had about as good a season as anyone ever had in 1912 and then injured his arm.
Career Brevity. He didn't do it long enough. there is no credit given for what ifs or should have beens.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
And the GOAT running back who averaged the most yards per game in history gained 0 yards after age 29.
Bobby Orr played more years than Jim Brown did.
Same thing with Gronk…. Not enough durability, too many missed games. Gonzalez played twice as many games at a very high level. And
Kelce will end up playing many more games than gronk as well.
Do you understand that no one has ever won 8 straight Norris trophies besides Orr ?
He won two Cups.
He is the only player to ever win one, let alone two Art Ross/ Norris or Selke trophies in the same year.
What more do you want ?
Are you saying that he didn’t win 12 Norris in a row ? Lol
4 Cups instead of 2 ? Lol
4 Art Ross/Norris instead of 2? Lol
He did things that no one in the game ever did !
Gretzky only won 7 art ross in a row.
Orr won 8 Norris in a row.
What’s your point ?
Was Orr once considered the consensus GOAT?
I think there are a couple of differences between Orr and Brown.
Brown retired voluntarily. He was still a monster at the top of his game. he wanted to make movies. Orr limped away a shell of himself, clearly washed.
Football is a much more brutal sport than hockey. Yes, Hockey is rough, but nothing like American tackle football. I believe the average career for a RB is < 3 years.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That 3 years is a contract/bonuses/benefits issue and not a health one.
All positions get dropped after 3 years.
It’s a money thing.
Are you disagreeing that Professional football is a more brutal sport than ice hockey?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
also, you did not address point 1.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
One guy gets hurt playing hockey like we’ve never seen and you hold that against him.
Brown and MJ walk away from their sports because they don’t want to play anymore and you praise them.
I’m out. This is getting silly.
In Orr’s day hockey was much more brutal. Ever see football players take off helmets and punch each other with bare fists ? Orr fought A LOT.
Ever see a football player get smashed into wooden boards night after night with little padding? Hockey players skate faster than football players run.
Heck, even MMA fighters don’t fight with bare knuckles
I’m out. Very silly now.
Harmon Killebrew faced (among others) Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax. He stated on many occasions that Herb Score threw "harder" than either of those guys and in fact anyone he ever faced.
Score.........GOAT?
I would say some of the hockey hits are worse because the players are going faster, but for football players there's more hitting. Running backs used to get hot a lot, but not much running anymore.
The way the NFL is going, it'll be "two hand touch" a few years from now.
Saw a Vikings receiver get popped by a Jets safety after a catch over the middle last week. Nice clean HARD hit, a little high, but not a headhunter hit.
I knew it was coming........"Personal foul, unnecessary roughness".
Really? Almost felt like they should have declined it.
If Hockey is a tougher sport than NFL football, how in the world can players bodies stand up to 82 regular season games, preseason and postseason? over 100 games a season. There is no way on earth Hockey is more physically taxing than Football. It took years of bargaining to get a 17 regular-season game added to the schedule.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I was stating a difference. Brown ran off the field, Orr limped. Do you think Orr could have played longer?
He was washed and you know it.
It is only silly because you are starting to run into opposition to your firmly held beliefs.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Good point on Score. He was a beast. for a minute.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
>
Yes, at least four if you are saying he was so much greater and so much faster than everyone else on the ice. Two titles out of 12 years for a guy in a sport where one man can make a big difference, I would expect more than two titles considering the accolades you are heaping upon him.
Per your own philosophy, championships are what matters. Not that I agree with that, but you believe it.
As for Jim Brown, why is it assumed that he is the greatest Running back of all time? That isn't a forgone conclusion.
>
>
I think hockey players are the toughest players (maybe rugby) of all.
Last year Wild player Matt Dumba hit an opponent in the face with a wicked slap shot. Blood and teeth all over the ice. The picture of the guy after the game looked like something out of a horror movie. The guy was playing a few days later.
Of course if you have ever been on a football field with artificial turf, you won't believe people play football on concrete covered with a little indoor/outdoor carpeting.
Ice is pretty hard too.
Arguing about who is tougher seems a little silly.