New 10 point grading system arrives
Jzyskowski1
Posts: 6,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
Got this email tonight. Looks like it’s real 🧐
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
0
Jzyskowski1
Posts: 6,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Why did you think it wasn't real? You thought NGC was joking?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13374762
With all due respect to NGC, this seems driven by marketing more than anything else. And yes, as Lance demonstrates, it's been covered here before.
Yup. Sure has. Just an update because it was more speculative than in practice. Sorry if I upset you.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Arrives ... in 2 months, not now.
What I see on ebay is that these are presales, with shipping on 2023-01-20.
I don't like it. I thought I would like a grading scale like this years ago, but now I'm not so sure. Will this mean we will have two grading scales active at the same time? Does this mean NGC will not grade on the 70 point scale anymore? Will there be a conversion scale? It reminds me of the time I was in grade school and the teachers said we were converting to a metric scale, but it never happened completely. We still use inches, feet, quarts, and gallons (although our bottles have both liter and quart measurements on them. Maybe we'll have labels with both scales on them.....yechhhhhhhh.
This will be fun to watch. As it gets going, we should probably have a dedicated thread to track the progress and eventual success or failure of this endeavor. Cheers, RickO
I don’t like the idea and it’s strictly revenue driven, IMHO. I sure hope it doesn’t carry over to classic coinage.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
it should be on 100 point scale
I don’t like it. Adds to confusion. Prefer consistency.
Will there be a conversion scale?
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Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Since they are using tenths, it's essentially a 100-point scale.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think your oversimplifying.
As I understand it, yes.
~ Only select coins will be eligible for NGCX:
Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
~ Further, NGCX will only be available from certain retailers:
Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
As I understand it, no.
"Regular" submissions to NGC will still be graded on the 70-point system:
Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
It appears that there is a correspondence between the two scales.
Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
@EliteCollection created a conversion table. It can be found here.
Edited to add:
I just detected a discrepancy.
NGC lists their 70-point grades here: https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/
There are 30 distinct grades.
NGC lists their 10-point grades here (via the slider): https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
There are only 29 distinct grades.
So, there cannot be a 1:1 'match'.
Also noted some differences in the terminology. For example, 9.6, presumably a 66 in a "cascade", reads: "a very well struck coin with negligible marks and hairlines." This does NOT match the description for a 66, which reads: "very well struck with minimal marks and hairlines."
In fact, it appears that the written description for 66 and 9.5 match.
Namely, "very well struck with minimal marks and hairlines" vs. "a very well struck coin with minimal marks or hairlines".
So....the difference between a MS 7.6 and a MS 7.7 will be what??? How are you going to explain that in layman terms? lol More people, not just most, will not ever be able to see that difference. Just more speculation, confusement about something being over micro-managed and it's just not going to work.. And I imagine, some people will buy into it and try to push the idea up.....to do what....get people to give up more of their cash. I'll stick to the BY5 Sheldon scale (ie; 45, 50, 55, 60, 65) and round it up or down because only the collector/individual who has seen 1000's of coins will know more/better than most what that difference might be and as usual, buy accordenly. Keep it simple folks to something that has been understood for years already.
Does the hobby really need this shot in the arm or is this another gimmick to boost their submissions? What happen with their star or W additions to their grades? Weren't they enough to pin point a grade?
A criterion understood by all? Are we talking about women in bikinis here? Where else in that applied daily?
There is no difference in quality between.......Yes there is! All the grade numbers will change, how much more confusion could it get than that? PERIOD! A regular MS70 will be equal to any coin that grades on the 100 scale MS99.3 to 100 or 9.3 to 10. Every point grade on the Sheldon scale will get expanded by .7 or 1.0% with their new 10 or 100 point scale, whatever you want to call it. Is that really necessary? That's all it is! A Shelden grade of AU50 will be changed to AU71.42857142857143! And it will take years for everyone to catch up with it. Dealers....look forward to a barge of never ending, What's that? questions! It will never end.
Here's my suggestion to NGC, keep your new scale behind closed doors, Go to your grading cubicles, apply any grading scale to whatever you think a coin grades on this new scale but make sure/certain to convert it back to the Shelden scale-----the grading scale that millions have come to understand and has been understood for decades! No-one wants to spend all day converting.....remember the metric system?.....NOBODY CONVERTED! Leave well enough alone!
Leo
Another suggestion to get everyone on board, you'll need stickers--lots of them so everyone can convert the grades on their already existing slabs to what the new grade number is. What a great way to convert!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Shorter leo...
Yes, like the rest of TPG grading.
somehow I think the British grading system is on a 100 point grades?
imagine the disappointment of getting 9.9s worth melt +$2
7.7 is better. They explain it to the layman with the number. The question is how they explain it to the cognescenti.
If you look at CGC, for example, they don't use every number and the ones they do have clear meanings.
https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/
It's really not rocket science, folks.
I don't think any one person or firm or entity will know if this rollout of a different scale is hugely successful. If it ends up someone or some group is correct then it was a good guess.
I am curious though what the stimulus was to implement. Focus group or retailer or wholesaler or executive decision? That might help determine if this has staying power or becomes irrelevant.
The goal is likely consistency for collectors first and graders second.
The more collectors collecting multiple types of collectibles are good for grading companies.
It’s the beginning of a transition from an archaic grading scale to one that is already in place for most other collectibles such as comics, sports cards, action figures, etc.
Totally agree the goal is uniformity between categories. You are in a sense changing the rules of the poker game on the middle of the game. A 100 point scale dies not correlate to a 70 point scale, I don't care how many conversion tables you provide, add in the subjectivity of grading and there is going to be uncertainty of broad long term acceptance.
That is why this is limited to moderns.
My curiosity is who or by what method was the decision made, not why.
You vote with your wallets. I won’t be buying them. If the collectors don’t buy it will fail.
I think it’s good for the hobby in the long run but may take some time and be a generational thing. New collectors will grow up with 10 scale and, by the time they have lots of budget, they will want 10 scale for classics. And by that time many classics collectors today may be retired from collecting.
Unfortunately, the 70 point scale, originally concocted to determine value of large cents for their grade, was flawed from the onset. The powers that be that decided to go with this system at the beginning kind of messed up the whole grading game for coins and put limits on it. Hopefully the new 10 scale for the coins intended will work just fine and hopefully it will begin a rational transition to a better numeric grading scheme. Change for the better even if short term negatives IMO. And hey, it keeps the grading companies in buisness LOL.
Best, SH
If the intended market doesn't buy, it will fail.
I will buy them. I hope they switch classics to a 10 point scale also.
If I had to bet, I'd say eventually, they will. BTW- this proposal would almost certainly be getting a better reception here if PCGS was implementing it instead of NGC.
Right. Change people's heights to meters and see how that goes.
Worked fine in the rest of the world. So 7 billion people didn't have a problem with it.
Or change soda bottles to liters! Oh wait a minute....!
C'mon you're a bright guy, you gotta give us more argument for success than "it seems neato" 😉
That is indeed a good analogy - feet, yards, miles, LOL. Most of the rest of the world came to reason a long time ago and switched to the metric system. I am thinking that I could very easily recalibrate in kilometers and kilograms, centimeters and grams, and a 10 point grading scale as well........
Our brains appear to be better calibrated to work in factors of 10 than 36 inches make a yard, 1760 yards make a mile, etc.
There is no difference between this scale and the 70 point scale except new numbers.
It’s exactly the same except the number jumps were renumbered (AU 53 becomes 8.3, XF 40 becomes 7).
Coin Photographer.
There is ONE key difference. It's more intuitive to people who weren't raised on the Sheldon scale.
LOL. That wasn't my argument. My argument is that the other 7+ billion people on the planet DID successfully switch to the metric system. Have you ever heard a European asking to go back? Do the Canadians rue the day that they switched?
@jmlanzaf said:
OK lets go I'm in lets convert.
Although we could encounter miscommunications like the satellite where NASA used metric and the contractor used imperial...oops one multimillion dollar lost satellite...oh well...
As a chemist, I already use the metric system 90% of the time. You'll have to catch up.
I respectfully disagree.
My preliminary efforts at creating a conversion table can be found above, and here. Based on the currently available information, there is not a 1:1 match.
IMHO, NGC needs to provide some 'additional information/clarification'.
For the record, I am NOT saying that:
~ the new scale is good or bad. The market will determine this.
~ the difference between the two scales is 'material/significant'. Notwithstanding, based on the currently published information, there are differences. For example, the description for 9.6 has no corresponding 'description/grade' on the Sheldon scale.
Edited to add:
Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
won't be my focus... I don't see me ever concentrating on post 1982 era. There are just too many other coins that I would rather have.
Here is my interpretation:
9-10 = salable
5-9 = Pocket change coins in plastic
<5 = Parking lot coins in plastic
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Us American scientists are fully metric, really, it is not hard..............
In the short run, that may be true. Frankly, I don't think you'll initially see anything for sale that isn't 9.5 or higher as they will be marketing freshly released coins from the Mint.
Would 69 and 70s translate to 9.9 and 10s?
The concern I see being expressed in this thread is that the 10-point grading scale could eventually expand to other series of coins and eventually to all coins. I and many other long-time collectors have several hundred slabbed coins. Will these older slabbed coins lose their value because they were graded using the now obsolete 70-point scale? Will long-time collectors with a large accumulation of older slabs need to spend thousands of dollars to get all their coins regraded and reslabbed to make them more readily saleable in future auctions? I think these concerns are very real and need to be addressed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’ve decided that if the switch is made I’ll be damned if I will reslab my hundred of graded coins. I’ll get some little stickers and a conversation chart and put a sticker over the old grade. Maybe 🤔
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
From the NGC website:
"The 70-point scale, known as the Sheldon grading scale, is the industry standard for coin grading. NGC will continue to use the 70-point scale for regular submissions.
There is no difference in quality between a grade on the NGCX 10-point grading scale and a grade on the 70-point scale. On the NGCX scale, 10 is the supreme grade, equivalent to a 70 on the traditional scale. The subsequent grades cascade from 10, a criterion understood by all.
For example, a coin graded NGCX Mint State or Proof 10 has no imperfections at 5x magnification, the same as a coin graded NGC Mint State or Proof 70. Likewise, an NGCX Mint State or Proof 9.9 is the same as a coin graded NGC Mint State or Proof 69 — each a fully struck coin with nearly imperceptible imperfections."
Addressed by whom? You won't know unless or until it happens. CAC changed the market. One of the arguments people use against CAC is that they have to now CAC their slabbed coins to get maximum value. The slabs themselves changed the market. I'm sure people with 100% raw collections in 1980 weren't pleased that they had to slab their collection to sell it. How was that concern addressed?
If the market embraces the 10 point scale and it expands AND if the market prefers the 10 scale to the 70, then you might have to slab your coins to achieve the highest price at auction. I see no reason why this is a problem that NGC should worry about or that anyone can address. It is the market and "the market" doesn't have a CEO to appeal to.