Under the radar stars and under priced
olb31
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Johnny Damon, Nomar Garciaparra, Kirk Gibson, chase utley, david wright, Fred mcgriff, Carlos beltran, Billy Wagner, Tommy John, Andres G., Brett butler - maybe not all their rookies, but other issues way under and some rookies way under.
Please list others.
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I always liked McGriff.
I like Randy Johnson.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
David Cone was a fantastic pitcher for 10-12 years. Also Orel Hershiser.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Guidry, Dwight Evans….
Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Andruw Jones, Kenny Lofton, Graig Nettles, all better than the average HoFer at their positions; none gets serious HoF buzz.
Also make a case for Rick Reuschel.
Is Johnson really under the radar? Hard to make a case for him not to be a top ten pitcher of all time and a very good case can be made for him in the top three.
I always thought Luis Tiant never got his deserved credit. I thought he was better than both Jim Kaat and Tommy John. His career WAR is better than both of them.
Couldn't agree more.
He was robbed in 1968!
"Better than Jim Kaat" isn't a qualifier for anything. I've said before and will say again (and again) that John belongs in the HoF ONLY as a builder for his surgery.
You are right he isn't under the radar but IMHO he is underpriced. If the guy looked like Tom Brady and played in Boston his cards would probably be 3 or 4 times more valuable. I should have bought hundreds of his 89 UD before they went up the last 4 or 5 years.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Willie Randolph. According to Baseball Reference his career WAR was 65.9. Wouldn't be surprised if one of those veterans committees down the line takes notice.
I always liked Willie, I also liked Sweet Lou Whitaker!
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Adrian Beltre and Randy Johnson. Prices for their stuff just don’t align with how good they were. I suspect Beltre prices will go up after he’s inducted.
Dusty Baker rookie card
Tommy john did win 288 games right? Will anyone else ever win that many? He was a true superstar and pitched in a lot of big games. Plus adding in his surgery, makes him a lock HOFer in my mind.
Hard to slight a player with as many accolades as Tommy has. A very nice person also.
Most definitely. Baker and Baylor and a high number. In a PSA 9, would any other card sale for more in the 1970's?
Another good guy. Played hard. Nice pull. I have a PSA 9 opc rookie of him, graded it myself.
Superstar?
He had two outstanding seasons 1977 and 1979, when he pitched over 200 innings and had ERA+'s of 137 and 138.
He was awesome in 1968, but only pitched 177 innings that year.
In half of the years he threw 200 innings or more he had a losing record and an ERA+ of 115 or below.
6-7 good/great years out of 26.
It's good to hear that he is a very nice person. He had a very nice career.
I would not put him in the HOF based on his pitching. Longevity seems to be a major factor in some of the new guys getting in, so I would not be surprised if John gets in.
Yep Joe superstar!!!
Joe whose the next guy that will pass him in wins?
he went 6-3 in the postseason and 2-1 in the world series also.
And 3 20 win seasons.
Verlander has 2 20 win seasons and has won 244. He's a lock correct?
mussina has 1 20 win season and 270 wins, he's in right?
Under priced rookies = Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Scottie Pippin, David Robinson…..Anthony Munoz, Ronnie Lott, Marcus Allen, Reggie White, Bruce Smith….Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Lou Whitaker, Frank Viola, Fred McGriff, Andres Galarraga, Rafael Palmeiro, Mark Grace, Gary Sheffield, Larry Walker, Mike Mussina, Todd Helton.
Under the radar = All 1970s and 1980s minor league rookies of the stars (e.g. Henderson, Ripken, Gwynn, Clemens, Maddux, etc.)
David Robinson, Munoz, and Viola really stand out to me from your list Jordan. Robinson is the epitome of an officer and gentlemen and a great NBA player. I would say a Top 25 or so player at that.
Viola was awesome. A true professional. No doubt his cards are very underpriced. 1983 topps is selling for around $200. Strawberry is around $300, Ryan $400, Rose $250. Viola should be above all of those.
Munoz might be the best offensive lineman in history. DOMINANT!!!. Hardly any of his 1983 and cards are even for sale. His rookie sales for around $1400 in 10, which sounds about right.
I will add Manny to this list. What he did for the Red Sox after more than 100 years of nothing, is nothing short of heroic. 29 hrs in postseason not bad. Wonder how many Trout has?
Marcus Allen and Dave Concepcion.
Al Oliver
The fact that you could have bought hundreds of his UD rookies helps explain the price. Johnson was a lot better than Griffey, but Griffey will always be the face of that set. Five years earlier or five years later that card is at least five times the price.
The 1970's are long gone. Using the antiquated "20 win season" as a benchmark doesn't work any longer.
The 5 man rotation has changed that.
Using wins never did.
i guess the steelers "steel curtain defense" of the 70's sucks now too. or the 4 super bowls they won. rules are different now so those years shouldn't count.
LOL!!
in sports winning is everything, ask mike trout.
what a great hitter. 9 straight years batting 300 or more. 10 out 11 and the one he didn't he batted 298.
jim zorn?
Ok let's look at it your way;
John had 15 seasons where he failed to win more games than he lost.
Verlander has had 3.
Mussina had 2.
I guess you forgot to look at losses.
I don't see it. I just sorted pitching seasons during John's career by WAA. His best is 1968 which is 144th. Then 1970 is 282nd. I mean the man never had 30 RAA or 5.7 WAR. (By WAR his top season was 235th.) A pretty good pitcher who pitched forever. I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to do the "divide the career in two" thing with him, but John was never, not in any season, a superstar. John's best season would have placed him approximately between Martin Perez and Julio Urias this year. No one would consider that a superstar.
jim zorn?
1) He pitched for 26 seasons. That's remarkable. I would assume there are less than 5 pitchers who have done that. on the all-time win list only Nolan ryan pitched more years (27), tommy is second.
2) Nolan Ryan lost a lot of games too. 16 Hofers lost more games than Tommy.
3) His surgery carries his name. Puts him on a little different plane.
4) He's 26 all-time in wins. all the people above him are in the hof except for Bobby Mathews (whoever that is). in fact the top 38 are in the hall of fame except for Tommy john, Bobby mathews, jaime moyer and tony mulane.
5) innings pitched he is 20th all-time
He looks like a slam dunk to me. I guess ya'll's definition of superstar is much different than mine.
I don't know why some people penalize players because they played a long time. Seems like that's a huge accomplishment in itself, and it should not diminish a guy's career. In my mind it adds to his resume to play longer. If a guy puts up the stats he puts up the stats.
Back on topic to the second name on the first list. Nomar Garciaparra was a superstar for 7-8 seasons before injuries derailed him.
His cards are more affordable than some other superstars from the same era, and he has lots of fans in Boston and LA so his cards have steadily increased in value over the years.
Plus, his late 90's prime coincides with the introduction of low serial numbered parallels that are extremely popular today. PMG's, Star Rubies, Essential Credentials and even regular Chrome refractors (which were 1:12 packs) are some cards that will always be sought after, especially in high grade. A Star Rubies card in a BGS 8.5 (I think) recently sold for over $1000 - the first non 1-of-1 4 figure Nomar card I've seen.
Paul Molitor?
Noticed that in 1996 he led the league in hits, had 40 doubles, hit .340, scored 99 runs, drove in 113 had 309 total Bases and had an OPS+ of only 116.
Ken Griffey Sr was a pretty good player.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Yes. I think few people here define superstar as "Good enough to stick around in the major leagues forever." John was never particularly good, just a little above average for a very long time. Since you seem to like wins and losses, the mean John season is 11.1 wins and 8.9 losses. Not superstar. Sorry.
BTW, you'll see me argue for John's enshrinement as a builder solely on the basis of your 3). That's enough. Unfortunately the quality of his pitching never was.
Oliver was good in 1982. Not so good the rest of his career. What does it say about the number (cited elsewhere) of his .300 seasons that his career BA was just .303? One BBWAA ballot, 19 votes seems about right.
You are not giving Oliver enough credit. Oliver was a solid player throughout his career.
HOF worthy? I agree, no.
Underrated player, very much so.
One pitcher that I have always liked is Mike Cuellar. It's unfortunate that he was nearly 30 before he made it the big leagues to stay. He's not a hall of famer but he accomplished quite a lot in his 30's.
currently 5 active players have a lifetime batting average of over 300. only altuve and miguel cabrera have a lifetime average higher than al oliver.
cuellar from 1969 - 1974 averaged over 20 wins per season with 4 20 win seasons. good call. 185 total wins, not bad.
cuellar 172 complete games, john 162. not one current player has more than 35. verlander 26 kershaw 23.
any other sports besides baseball?
football zorn, jordy nelson, jared allen, deacon jones, curtis martin, barber twins
basketball - mchale, dj, byron scott, joe dumars, westphal, lanier, hayes
Harvey Martin.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
And if batting average were the sole determiner of goodness, I'd agree with you. Batting average is a crapshoot. Some years the leader is a star, some years not so much. You might get Rico Carty and Alex Johnson, you might get Chipper Jones and Joe Mauer, or you might get Jeff McNeil and Luis Arraez. And in spite of that, Oliver only won the batting crown once.
Killebrew stats (HOFer) - 2,100 hits, 573 HR, 1600 RBI, BA 256, 4143 tb, 1,280 runs
Oliver stats (not Hofer) - 2,750 hits, 219, HR, 1,325 RBI, BA 303, 4083 tb, 1190 runs
While we can all agree that HK was a much better HR hitter, after that things get really close. Oliver and Billy Williams stats are very similar also.
Baseball - guys who are really close to HOFer's or probably should be: (10 HoFer, 9 hofer, but not quite as good, 8 hofer, but a little iffy and so on ) (these guys are different than the steriod era guys who aren't in for those reasons)
1) Tommy John - 8
2) Al Oliver - 7.5
3) Bill Buckner - 7
4) Bill Madlock - 7
5) Graig Nettles - 7.5 (5 star fielder)
6) Brett Butler - 7 (all around player, great lead off hitter)
7) Dusty Baker - 9 (playing days plus coaching should get him in)
8) Frank Tanana - 7.5
9) Ken griffey - 7
10) Bobby bonds - 7
11) Bob Boone - (fantastic catcher, great leader, more than just stats) - 7
12) Lance Parrish - 8 easily a top 10 catcher of all-time.
13) Willie Randolph - 7
14) Johnny Damon - 8.5
15) Billy Wagner - 8
Boog Powell
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Good comparison. The only thing I would add is, Killebrew walked a LOT MORE so that his OBP was actually higher than Oliver's, who hit for a much higher average.