The proponents - @spacehayduke, @MasonG and @jmlanzaf are making assumptions that the opposition “hates change” and that this will attract new hobbyists. Neither of those assumptions are necessarily true.
I think many numismatists would welcome change with demonstrable value. AI grading which provides the benefits of consistency and reduced grading fees due to lower labor costs is an example of change that I think many in the hobby would appreciate.
Do you really think there’s a material number of prospective hobbyists out there that will start buying coins because the NGC label on a silver eagle says PR10 instead of PR70? I guess we will find out.
I agree, we are, based on past experience with folks here and in the numismatic community and how they view TPG's. I could have told you before this thread was started that the nay sayers would come out in force. This is a wonderful sociological experiment. One could do a full study and probably write a paper on 'change in numismatics' over time and how it relates to change in society. Human nature is what it us.
One thing to remember here, NGC is ONLY doing this for the bullion market and specific vendors and explain their reasons. An Au58 1831 half dime is not part of the equation here, no one (as of yet) will be able to submit that for a 10 pt grading scale eval.
It seems that the primary concern of those opposed to this is the eventual salability/liquidity of their currently slabbed coins, if the 10-point scale becomes widely accepted. Slabbed coins with the current Sheldon Scale grade won’t receive top dollar in this expected eventual market.
To me, this sounds like a great way to grade generic ASE and AGE that are destined to be sold on TV, via mail ads, via ads on non-numismatic websites, or via telephone. The folks that buy through these channels, I would say in many cases, are not true “numismatists” as folks here would typically understand them to be. The companies that sell through these channels know that there is huge market arbitrage opportunity with this segment of folks already, and NGC is creating a product that helps reach this target audience more effectively. I’m not sure if the current “qualifying retailers” sell through these channels or not, but that’s just my perspective.
I’m sure, the results of this initial product launch will determine if the service is expanded to other coin types and whether other TPGs will jump in.
All other collectibles are on 10 or 100 point scales. It simply makes marketing easier. Try the experiment at home. Ask non coin people how they feel about a coin that is a 9.5 and ask a group of people about a 65 and see how many think the 65 is worth buying and how many think the 95 is worth buying.
I know it is a business to the grading services. I get that.
It's evident that most who are in favor of this prospective change are in favor of a higher price level, some inflating it as high as possible, as a change in grading scale has nothing to do with actual collecting. This is due to the difference in viewing coin buying as an "investment", a combination of "investment" and consumption, or consumption. TPG is one of the primary factors which has financialized collecting by inflating the price level.
I primarily view my collection as an alternative consumption expense. I've sold coins intermittently but would rather pay less than more. That's why I don't favor it, as I see it further inflating the price level by increasing more financially motivated buying, supposedly increasing interest in the "hobby". No, I would not want to sell my collection at a big loss but then, that's why I don't buy coins I don't like or don't like enough to lose a noticeable proportion of my cost.
The higher price level is one of two reasons I don't buy coins I did in the past, as the coin's current price isn't consistent with what the coin is as a collectible in my view.
Inflating the price level on the way up (a likely outcome of this change if it meets one of the definitions of success) expands the "hobby" on the way up. It doesn't work so great on the way down.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@PerryHall said:
If the major grading services go to a 10-point grading system, how many of you will resubmit all of your slabbed coins to get them regraded? I sure won't.
I won't. Then again I have hundreds of raw coins that I won't submit on the 70 point scale.
Same thing here. The only time I submit coins is when I'm going to sell them and I believe slabbing will make them more saleable.
As far as making the assumption that this new service will attract new hobbyists, that is incorrect. All I've done is point out that companies try to create things that people will buy.
MasonG: "Holy cow! Businesses trying to develop products/services that people will voluntarily pay for? What's the world coming to?"
MasonG: "It's what companies (people) do- see if they can come up with a product or service that others will pay for and generate a profit."
I have no idea how it will work out.
MasonG: "The Sheldon 70 point scale was intended for grading large cents. If this new scale catches on, fine. If not, fine."
@jmlanzaf said:
Totally agree. And if it expands the collector base, we all benefit. .
The proponents - @spacehayduke, @MasonG and @jmlanzaf are making assumptions that the opposition “hates change” and that this will attract new hobbyists. Neither of those assumptions are necessarily true.
I think many numismatists would welcome change with demonstrable value. AI grading which provides the benefits of consistency and reduced grading fees due to lower labor costs is an example of change that I think many in the hobby would appreciate.
Do you really think there’s a material number of prospective hobbyists out there that will start buying coins because the NGC label on a silver eagle says PR10 instead of PR70? I guess we will find out.
PS I'd make a side wager that you will hear just as much angst about AI grading.
Check out your average CAC thread for a measure of how readily people embrace change.
And I don't know how long you've been collecting but people despised the whole idea of TPGs well into the 1990s. This has never been a hobby that has readily embraced change.
I don’t want to have to resubmit my moderns (especially PCGS 70s) in 25yrs for regrading to make them salable to a collecting community that has completely adopted 1-10.
I would flip the question around. If cards or video games adopted the Sheldon scale, would anyone here begin collecting because the grading system is similar to what they already understand? I doubt it.
By the way - if PCGS could develop an AI app that grades coins through a smartphone camera in real time, I’d happily pay a subscription fee or pay per coin. Best of both worlds - raw coin with a PCGS grade. That’s the future.
People go nuts for PCGS 1.x holders now, the current graded ones will become the new rattlers in 25 years.
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
@Zoins said:
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
Isn't that really always the case? I know some people just like their coins slabbed. But it is a sunk cost if there is no added value in my opinion.
Of course, the real fun would be if they decided to switch the registry sets to a 10 point system. Then watch the fur fly on the forum!
@Zoins said:
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
Isn't that really always the case?
For many to be sure, but some people just stop collecting.
I know some people just like their coins slabbed. But it is a sunk cost if there is no added value in my opinion.
Some people just like the way some slabs look.
Of course, the real fun would be if they decided to switch the registry sets to a 10 point system. Then watch the fur fly on the forum!
@Zoins said:
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
Isn't that really always the case?
For many to be sure, but some people just stop collecting.
Why would someone stop collecting just because they don't want to resubmit?
I know some people just like their coins slabbed. But it is a sunk cost if there is no added value in my opinion.
Some people just like the way some slabs look.
Which I already stated. It is, however, a sunk cost.
Of course, the real fun would be if they decided to switch the registry sets to a 10 point system. Then watch the fur fly on the forum!
Since the TPG's have a major interest in grading Baseball Cards, it's easier for them to keep things straight ....
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
@Zoins said:
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
Isn't that really always the case?
For many to be sure, but some people just stop collecting.
Why would someone stop collecting just because they don't want to resubmit?
Some prominent collectors on these forums have stopped major areas of collecting for them due to submitting for the same TPG or stickers.
These come down to coins being worth less without more submissions.
I know some people just like their coins slabbed. But it is a sunk cost if there is no added value in my opinion.
Some people just like the way some slabs look.
Which I already stated. It is, however, a sunk cost.
Not if you want consistency and more and more slabs only come with the new look.
Of course, the real fun would be if they decided to switch the registry sets to a 10 point system. Then watch the fur fly on the forum!
I bet there would be a conversion chart for that.
Not if it really was a "money grab".
That may not work well if there is a slow pace of conversion.
The MS/PR 69/70 differential was not with all slabbed coins a clearly defined and unarguable one. What happens to that now in the new 10 slabs? The 70 grade was often a money grade, curious how pricing will be established with the 10 point scale.
@logger7 said:
The MS/PR 69/70 differential was not with all slabbed coins a clearly defined and unarguable one. What happens to that now in the new 10 slabs? The 70 grade was often a money grade, curious how pricing will be established with the 10 point scale.
As I understand it, the grades in the new system have an exact 'match' in the old system.
Assuming this is correct, why would the pricing be significantly different? IOW, wouldn't the new "10", a "70" under the old system, still be the "money grade"?
@logger7 said:
The MS/PR 69/70 differential was not with all slabbed coins a clearly defined and unarguable one. What happens to that now in the new 10 slabs? The 70 grade was often a money grade, curious how pricing will be established with the 10 point scale.
As I understand it, the grades in the new system have an exact 'match' in the old system.
Assuming this is correct, why would the pricing be significantly different? IOW, wouldn't the new "10", a "70" under the old system, still be the "money grade"?
Ok, I misunderstood. Is this then a precursor to a 100 point system? If they are going with decimals they might as well be mapping the 70 based system into 100, but again I may be misinformed.
@Zoins said:
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
Isn't that really always the case?
For many to be sure, but some people just stop collecting.
Why would someone stop collecting just because they don't want to resubmit?
Some prominent collectors on these forums have stopped major areas of collecting for them due to submitting for the same TPG or stickers.
These come down to coins being worth less without more submissions.
I know some people just like their coins slabbed. But it is a sunk cost if there is no added value in my opinion.
Some people just like the way some slabs look.
Which I already stated. It is, however, a sunk cost.
Not if you want consistency and more and more slabs only come with the new look.
Of course, the real fun would be if they decided to switch the registry sets to a 10 point system. Then watch the fur fly on the forum!
I bet there would be a conversion chart for that.
Not if it really was a "money grab".
That may not work well if there is a slow pace of conversion.
It's still a sunk cost, even if you choose to pay it.
@logger7 said:
The MS/PR 69/70 differential was not with all slabbed coins a clearly defined and unarguable one. What happens to that now in the new 10 slabs? The 70 grade was often a money grade, curious how pricing will be established with the 10 point scale.
As I understand it, the grades in the new system have an exact 'match' in the old system.
Assuming this is correct, why would the pricing be significantly different? IOW, wouldn't the new "10", a "70" under the old system, still be the "money grade"?
Because "10" is less than "70?"
There is a story told in Marketing circles, it may or may not be true, that after McDonalds successfully launched the "1/4 Pounder," one of the other big burger chains tried to launch a "1/3 Pounder" or whatever the correct name was. At 5-1/3 ounce it was obviously larger than the 4 ounce "1/4 Pounder," but people who could not do simple arithmetic were convinced that the one with the "3" in the name was less than the one with the "4" in the name.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
There is a story told in Marketing circles, it may or may not be true, that after McDonalds successfully launched the "1/4 Pounder," one of the other big burger chains tried to launch a "1/3 Pounder" or whatever the correct name was. At 5-1/3 ounce it was obviously larger than the 4 ounce "1/4 Pounder," but people who could not do simple arithmetic were convinced that the one with the "3" in the name was less than the one with the "4" in the name.
Per the question, I was thinking 10.0 vs. 9.9, not NGCX scale vs. Sheldon scale.
so is NGC going to provide a cross reference chart comparing the 70 point scale to the 10 point scale (really a 100 point scale since there is one decimal place).
For example what would a MS 60 equate to?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
It's more understandable to people who are not familiar with the hobby. Seems like that wouldn't hurt.
Are there any of us under eighty? This is NGC’s opportunity to effect change as we cash out.
Options are going crazy in many products; design an attractive holder, at least.
Maybe they can offer ribbed and super thin cases.
@Fraz said:
Maybe they can offer ribbed and super thin cases.
For your collecting pleasure?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It's more understandable to people who are not familiar with the hobby. Seems like that wouldn't hurt.
Are there any of us under eighty? This is NGC’s opportunity to effect change as we cash out.
Options are going crazy in many products; design an attractive holder, at least.
Maybe they can offer ribbed and super thin cases.
There are plenty of collectors under 80.
There are also plenty of collectors who just dabble in things. To a comic book collector familiar with a CGC 10 point scale, it will be much more logical to them when buying the Star Wars Niue coin as an add-on to their collection when it is also on a 10 point scale. The person who only buys 9.6 or 9.8 comic books isn't going to automatically see an NGC 66 as a worthy collectible coin. He wants a 9.6 or 9.8 coin because that assessment of quality makes sense to them.
A wine aficionado used to 100 point scale will intuitively understand a 9/10 in a way that doesn't immediately compute on 66 out of 70.
Comments
I agree, we are, based on past experience with folks here and in the numismatic community and how they view TPG's. I could have told you before this thread was started that the nay sayers would come out in force. This is a wonderful sociological experiment. One could do a full study and probably write a paper on 'change in numismatics' over time and how it relates to change in society. Human nature is what it us.
One thing to remember here, NGC is ONLY doing this for the bullion market and specific vendors and explain their reasons. An Au58 1831 half dime is not part of the equation here, no one (as of yet) will be able to submit that for a 10 pt grading scale eval.
Best, SH
This is exactly what I think should be used for my primary interest (non-US).
It seems that the primary concern of those opposed to this is the eventual salability/liquidity of their currently slabbed coins, if the 10-point scale becomes widely accepted. Slabbed coins with the current Sheldon Scale grade won’t receive top dollar in this expected eventual market.
To me, this sounds like a great way to grade generic ASE and AGE that are destined to be sold on TV, via mail ads, via ads on non-numismatic websites, or via telephone. The folks that buy through these channels, I would say in many cases, are not true “numismatists” as folks here would typically understand them to be. The companies that sell through these channels know that there is huge market arbitrage opportunity with this segment of folks already, and NGC is creating a product that helps reach this target audience more effectively. I’m not sure if the current “qualifying retailers” sell through these channels or not, but that’s just my perspective.
I’m sure, the results of this initial product launch will determine if the service is expanded to other coin types and whether other TPGs will jump in.
I know it is a business to the grading services. I get that.
It's evident that most who are in favor of this prospective change are in favor of a higher price level, some inflating it as high as possible, as a change in grading scale has nothing to do with actual collecting. This is due to the difference in viewing coin buying as an "investment", a combination of "investment" and consumption, or consumption. TPG is one of the primary factors which has financialized collecting by inflating the price level.
I primarily view my collection as an alternative consumption expense. I've sold coins intermittently but would rather pay less than more. That's why I don't favor it, as I see it further inflating the price level by increasing more financially motivated buying, supposedly increasing interest in the "hobby". No, I would not want to sell my collection at a big loss but then, that's why I don't buy coins I don't like or don't like enough to lose a noticeable proportion of my cost.
The higher price level is one of two reasons I don't buy coins I did in the past, as the coin's current price isn't consistent with what the coin is as a collectible in my view.
Inflating the price level on the way up (a likely outcome of this change if it meets one of the definitions of success) expands the "hobby" on the way up. It doesn't work so great on the way down.
Apropos nothing at all, I remember how willingly the USA converted to the Metric System back in 1975.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_States
Same thing here. The only time I submit coins is when I'm going to sell them and I believe slabbing will make them more saleable.
As far as making the assumption that this new service will attract new hobbyists, that is incorrect. All I've done is point out that companies try to create things that people will buy.
MasonG: "Holy cow! Businesses trying to develop products/services that people will voluntarily pay for? What's the world coming to?"
MasonG: "It's what companies (people) do- see if they can come up with a product or service that others will pay for and generate a profit."
I have no idea how it will work out.
MasonG: "The Sheldon 70 point scale was intended for grading large cents. If this new scale catches on, fine. If not, fine."
People go nuts for PCGS 1.x holders now, the current graded ones will become the new rattlers in 25 years.
Hey Y'all,
Herez a dealers perspective. Comments to the vid are also interesting.............
Best, SH
Oh, you know those dealers...always got their hands in your pockets.
As for resubmitting, it will come down to whether it's financially better to do it or not. It might not be worthwhile to start, but over time I can see it getting traction.
Isn't that really always the case? I know some people just like their coins slabbed. But it is a sunk cost if there is no added value in my opinion.
Of course, the real fun would be if they decided to switch the registry sets to a 10 point system. Then watch the fur fly on the forum!
For many to be sure, but some people just stop collecting.
Some people just like the way some slabs look.
I bet there would be a conversion chart for that.
Why would someone stop collecting just because they don't want to resubmit?
Which I already stated. It is, however, a sunk cost.
Not if it really was a "money grab".
Since the TPG's have a major interest in grading Baseball Cards, it's easier for them to keep things straight ....
Some prominent collectors on these forums have stopped major areas of collecting for them due to submitting for the same TPG or stickers.
These come down to coins being worth less without more submissions.
Not if you want consistency and more and more slabs only come with the new look.
That may not work well if there is a slow pace of conversion.
The MS/PR 69/70 differential was not with all slabbed coins a clearly defined and unarguable one. What happens to that now in the new 10 slabs? The 70 grade was often a money grade, curious how pricing will be established with the 10 point scale.
As I understand it, the grades in the new system have an exact 'match' in the old system.
Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
(FAQ = "I thought coins were graded on a 70-point scale. How does the 10-point scale compare to the 70-point scale?")
Assuming this is correct, why would the pricing be significantly different? IOW, wouldn't the new "10", a "70" under the old system, still be the "money grade"?
Ok, I misunderstood. Is this then a precursor to a 100 point system? If they are going with decimals they might as well be mapping the 70 based system into 100, but again I may be misinformed.
As I pointed out.
It's still a sunk cost, even if you choose to pay it.
Wowza!
I now have a "clear path to embrace the coin" and I just cannot stop doing the happy dance
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Because "10" is less than "70?"
There is a story told in Marketing circles, it may or may not be true, that after McDonalds successfully launched the "1/4 Pounder," one of the other big burger chains tried to launch a "1/3 Pounder" or whatever the correct name was. At 5-1/3 ounce it was obviously larger than the 4 ounce "1/4 Pounder," but people who could not do simple arithmetic were convinced that the one with the "3" in the name was less than the one with the "4" in the name.
Per the question, I was thinking 10.0 vs. 9.9, not NGCX scale vs. Sheldon scale.
Notwithstanding, you make an excellent point.
It will be interesting to watch this develop.
Shouldn't this be a 9-point grading scale if it goes from 1-10 instead of 0-10? That's like the equivalent of the Sheldon grading scale starting at 7.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
so is NGC going to provide a cross reference chart comparing the 70 point scale to the 10 point scale (really a 100 point scale since there is one decimal place).
For example what would a MS 60 equate to?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I've never seen a Sheldon 0.
Most collectibles have a 0.5 but not a zero.
https://ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx-10-point-grading-scale/
Previous NGCX link moved or replaced. Above is the latest as of 12/02/2022
but just like the Sheldon scale, less than half the numbers are used.
Because you don't need 70 or 100 numbers (grades). No one could tell the difference between an 84 and an 85.
Sorry I meant 0.1-10
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Are there any of us under eighty? This is NGC’s opportunity to effect change as we cash out.
Options are going crazy in many products; design an attractive holder, at least.
Maybe they can offer ribbed and super thin cases.
For your collecting pleasure?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Wait until they introduce the … Oops, three strikes and I’m through.
There are plenty of collectors under 80.
There are also plenty of collectors who just dabble in things. To a comic book collector familiar with a CGC 10 point scale, it will be much more logical to them when buying the Star Wars Niue coin as an add-on to their collection when it is also on a 10 point scale. The person who only buys 9.6 or 9.8 comic books isn't going to automatically see an NGC 66 as a worthy collectible coin. He wants a 9.6 or 9.8 coin because that assessment of quality makes sense to them.
A wine aficionado used to 100 point scale will intuitively understand a 9/10 in a way that doesn't immediately compute on 66 out of 70.
It will actually be a 100 point scale.
Soon they'll use 9.1 9.2 etc
BHNC #203