Ron, it seems that the dealer you are talking about probably does the same thing that we are all guilty of. And that is when we have an order ready to submit, we tend to add extra cards along for the ride. If I'm ready to submit say 40 cards, I'll just add a few more to fill it up to 50. After all it would be no extra for shipping to California, and probably no extra to receive it. My last order, I had about 80 modern cards worthy of grading, I had busted up 2 cases of '99 Topps traded. The price break is 100 cards, so I looked around and added 20 to the batch. Guess what 20 cards I got slaughtered with? I added 5 1978 Topps commons, figuring they looked like 8's. One came back a 7 another a 4! (A Garry Maddox PSA-4 yeech!) and so on. I got over 90% 9's and 10's of the intended 80 cards, but most of the other 20 won't even pay for the discounted grading fee...jay
I had an experience similar to Ron's late last year (November-time) with regard to 1972s. I picked up a few cards from a major dealer I knew had submitted several hundred 72s. I think the number was in the 400-500 range and I just started running consecutive cert numbers. At any rate, there were mostly 8s with a lot of 9s. But nothing indiciating an overabundance of 9s. Everything was in line with this dealer's ability to pre-screen cards. I had the chance to look through half to 2/3 of these and saw nothing obviously overgraded. Certainly nothing indicating a "grading break".
Something else I have always wondered about their grading:
Do they check the current population of the card before grading it? I have always wondered if they know there has, for example, never been a 9 of a certain card as opposed to knowing there are 50 9's and 10's already graded. Just wondering if extra attention, and more strenuous grading, might occur if the card would be a 1 of 1. I recently sent in a small batch of 1959 commons. Many of them had never had any 9's graded to date. All of those cards received 8's whereby many of the cards, which already had a population of 2 or more and were in the very same, well examined condition, received 9's.
Thanks for the great posts. Its very informative and enlightening to hear all of your experiences.
I've never gone through the review process, but I have probably cracked open at least 60-70 holders and resubmitted 8s that I was confident were 9s. My success rate of receiving 9's is around 30-40%. If PSA was truly consistent, my success rate would be ZERO. In their defense, grading is a subject art and I don't think any group of people will grade the same card exactly the same way every time.
I asked that question of Rocchi and Baker once on an internet Q & A. How was it that at one point Mcgwire rookies were grading about 3% tens and 40% nines (numbers might be incorrect) and since BGS came out with their grading the percentages had dropped? They did not answer my question other than to say, that nothing had changed in the grading area. I suppose one could rationalize that originally the rookies sent in were from Vending and were hand picked and as Mcgwire got hot more and more cards that came in were from collections and wax. Hence, the drop off of 9's and 10's. But it does seem they run through peaks and valleys. I have been dissapointed with my grades more than I have been pleasantly surprised but I have been pleasantly surprised on occasion.
My belief is that PSA does make mistakes. Also, on cards they see all the time (Mcgwire RC's, Griffey RC's, Bonds RC's) they are more likely to grade them more quickly and are more likely to give out an 8. However, it could be argued that most if not all of the other compaines are far more INCONSISTENT than PSA.
There are alot of good points being made. I'll tell you I got price breaks as long as I sent in 1000 cards a month for at least 6 consecutive months. This is business, in most businesses there are price breaks for large quantity purchasing, there are price breaks if you pay your bill in 10 days in most industries. I dont think PSA or Steve R did anything wrong with price breaks for large continuous submittals. My first submittal had to be 4000 or so cards to get the break. I'm sure they will still do breaks for large orders, but they must be continuous. I lost my break because I dont have the time to put that many cards together nor do I really feel like it. Its alot of work. I was wondering the same thing the Cubs Fan said, if they knew the Pop report when grading.
aro13 - However, it could be argued that most if not all of the other compaines are far more INCONSISTENT than PSA.
I think there is a difference between consistent grading and consistent grades. In all the examples above PSA has been consistent in that grades aren't always what the submitter hopes for. CrazySC writes above - It came to a point where I could NOT tell what grades my own cards would receive. So he explored other avenues in which he received the grades he needed. The other company's grades would be very consistent, not such much in the grading procedure, but in the grades they give out. The value of the consistent grade stuff eventually drops as the public finds their grading inconsistent. Everybody who submits cards to PSA will have complaints about how their cards were graded. They are quite happy with this pile, but unhappy with this pile. Nothing has changed. It's been like this from the beginning. If you have cards you think are undergraded they will take a look at them. If they agree, they change them. If not, you can give up or try and try again. They know they can make you happy by simply giving you the benefit of the doubt on each and every close call. But if they do, the product they put out on the market suffers. It's a no win situation for them. They have no reason, and can't possibly benefit by pis sing people off by purposely by putting low grades on cards. It's nothing personal, it's just the grader's opinion of the card at that time. It is what you are paying for, and it's what you are getting. It's their honest opinion and not just a rubber-stamped 10.
Once again I am thankful for all the info. that is exchanged here. Thanks. Let me start by saying that I am not like most that have posted on this thread. I am a small time submitter and collector. I do have a few questions/comments though:
With regard to the on-again, off-again tighter grading. What do most feel is the reason for this. Two ideas come to my little mind. 1) A staff meeting where graders are told to grade "tighter". 2) New graders that are not quite up to speed.
To me, most of the general feeling I get from reading this thread is that #1 is happening. I don't get what PSA gets out of doing this or what is the driving force behind a decision like this. To me, 9's and 8's are the set building cards. Anything less than an 8 and aren't they in a way cutting their own throat. I'm also not saying they need to give 8's and 9's to keep the interest going. I just can't see a legit reason for a grader looking at one of gaspipes 69 cards and saying to himself, "this is a 9 but I am going to give it an 8". What does this accomplish? If everybody is doing there job, the same way, every day, why would grade tightening ever have to occur? I'll join you all in the I'm confused boat.
In 1965s, there are about 29,600 cards graded with only 21 cards receiving a 10. Of those 21 cards, 2 cards were given 10s on the same invoice. Further, they were given within 5 cards of each other!!
So, 29,595 submissions get 19 cards grade 10. Someone in a 5 card stretch gets 2 10s!! Kinda crazy huh?
Likelihood of a 10 under normal circumstances -- 19 of 29,595 or 0.0642%. Either that 5 card stretch came from a diety vending run, or the grader lost his virginity that day, or something so sinister that only batman could remedy.
Anyway, just some analysis I wanted to share....
Where have you gone Dave Vargha CU turns its lonely eyes to you What's the you say, Mrs Robinson Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
Comments
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Mike
Do they check the current population of the card before grading it? I have always wondered if they know there has, for example, never been a 9 of a certain card as opposed to knowing there are 50 9's and 10's already graded. Just wondering if extra attention, and more strenuous grading, might occur if the card would be a 1 of 1. I recently sent in a small batch of 1959 commons. Many of them had never had any 9's graded to date. All of those cards received 8's whereby many of the cards, which already had a population of 2 or more and were in the very same, well examined condition, received 9's.
Thanks for the great posts. Its very informative and enlightening to hear all of your experiences.
I suppose one could rationalize that originally the rookies sent in were from Vending and were hand picked and as Mcgwire got hot more and more cards that came in were from collections and wax. Hence, the drop off of 9's and 10's.
But it does seem they run through peaks and valleys. I have been dissapointed with my grades more than I have been pleasantly surprised but I have been pleasantly surprised on occasion.
My belief is that PSA does make mistakes. Also, on cards they see all the time (Mcgwire RC's, Griffey RC's, Bonds RC's) they are more likely to grade them more quickly and are more likely to give out an 8. However, it could be argued that most if not all of the other compaines are far more INCONSISTENT than PSA.
I was wondering the same thing the Cubs Fan said, if they knew the Pop report when grading.
I think there is a difference between consistent grading and consistent grades. In all the examples above PSA has been consistent in that grades aren't always what the submitter hopes for. CrazySC writes above - It came to a point where I could NOT tell what grades my own cards would receive. So he explored other avenues in which he received the grades he needed. The other company's grades would be very consistent, not such much in the grading procedure, but in the grades they give out. The value of the consistent grade stuff eventually drops as the public finds their grading inconsistent. Everybody who submits cards to PSA will have complaints about how their cards were graded. They are quite happy with this pile, but unhappy with this pile. Nothing has changed. It's been like this from the beginning. If you have cards you think are undergraded they will take a look at them. If they agree, they change them. If not, you can give up or try and try again. They know they can make you happy by simply giving you the benefit of the doubt on each and every close call. But if they do, the product they put out on the market suffers. It's a no win situation for them. They have no reason, and can't possibly benefit by pis sing people off by purposely by putting low grades on cards. It's nothing personal, it's just the grader's opinion of the card at that time. It is what you are paying for, and it's what you are getting. It's their honest opinion and not just a rubber-stamped 10.
Let me start by saying that I am not like most that have posted on this thread. I am a small time submitter and collector. I do have a few questions/comments though:
With regard to the on-again, off-again tighter grading. What do most feel is the reason for this. Two ideas come to my little mind.
1) A staff meeting where graders are told to grade "tighter".
2) New graders that are not quite up to speed.
To me, most of the general feeling I get from reading this thread is that #1 is happening.
I don't get what PSA gets out of doing this or what is the driving force behind a decision like this. To me, 9's and 8's are the set building cards. Anything less than an 8 and aren't they in a way cutting their own throat. I'm also not saying they need to give 8's and 9's to keep the interest going. I just can't see a legit reason for a grader looking at one of gaspipes 69 cards and saying to himself, "this is a 9 but I am going to give it an 8". What does this accomplish? If everybody is doing there job, the same way, every day, why would grade tightening ever have to occur? I'll join you all in the I'm confused boat.
Thanks for letting me ramble.
So, 29,595 submissions get 19 cards grade 10. Someone in a 5 card stretch gets 2 10s!! Kinda crazy huh?
Likelihood of a 10 under normal circumstances -- 19 of 29,595 or 0.0642%. Either that 5 card stretch came from a diety vending run, or the grader lost his virginity that day, or something so sinister that only batman could remedy.
Anyway, just some analysis I wanted to share....
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
<< <i>or the grader lost his virginity >>
OK, that works for me!
When you have an in-house auction company like Superior selling your cards, it sure helps to limit the number of PSA 9's on the market!