PL designation for German Empire coins (1871-1919)

Paradisaea

I am curious if anyone has experience with how PCGS applies the proof-like (PL) designation to silver coins from the German Empire (1871-1919)?

German firms occasionally use the term ‘erstabschlag’, meaning first strike, to distinguish coins presumably struck from fresh dies. Less often, coins are distinguished as ‘von polierten Stempeln/Rondon’ in reference to circulation issues struck from polished dies/planchets.

I would describe coins of both categories as proof-like; coins with reflective surfaces (+/- slight lustre) but lacking either deeply mirrored fields, square edges, or crisp details.

It seems the PL designation offers opportunity to distinguish such coins. But I’m uncertain how the designation is applied in practice.

Does anyone have experience submitting ‘erstabschlag’ or ‘von polierten Stempeln’ graded coins to PCGS since the PL designation was extended to world coins? Or has anyone seen a German coin with a PL-label in hand?

I would appreciate your perspectives!

coinkat

I can see this is your first post- Welcome to the forum.

I like your question as I also casually collect Empire coins from this time frame. While I have submitted several One Mark coins to our host, I do not believe I own an example that would meet or satisfy a PL designation. I do think that the designation should exist.

coinkat

While this is a terrific looking coin, the mirrors are just not worthy of PL consideration. I am posting this just to illustrate my point from the prior post.

bigmarty58

Welcome to the Darkside!

neildrobertson

@Paradisaea said:
I would appreciate your perspectives!

I am an avid collector of German Empire coins. In my experience, it is extremely rare to find an Empire coin that would be deemed "PL" by PCGS. NGC appears to give the designation a little more readily, but it is still rare there too.

I collect mostly minor coins, and I haven't seen one of those graded as PL yet. PCGS has only graded 8 1 Marks with the PL designation. The only Kaiserreich coins I have seen with the designation are the 2,3, and 5 Marks. The PL designation has only been given on German coins for 2-3 years, so coins would have to have been graded fairly recently to get it.

My personal editorial is that I don't worry about the designation too much. There are many beautiful EA coins that warrant a higher price tag than a normal coin. If it is in a normal slab, I have a chance at getting it for a reasonable price. If it get the PL, then I have to pay 3x. I want to stay away from that nonsense. Many of the coins that would earn it.

The other confounding element is that many coins that receive PL might actually be proofs. I've sent in coins that I thought were PL that were slabbed as proof. I've sent in a coin the Kuenker described as Polierte Platte, and it graded MS without the PL designation. There isn't comprehensive documentation (that I'm aware of) on how proofs were made at the different mints in different years, and they are rare enough that you won't necessarily have a large body of other proofs to compare them against.

neildrobertson

This 5 Pfennig is a coin I submitted thinking it would PL. They called it Proof.


This 1 Mark Kuenker sold as PP. It has a strong strike and rims and good luster but no mirrors. It is clearly a special coin, but without the understanding of minting methods...I don't know. PCGS says MS.


https://imgur.com/a/z2iTOrO

neildrobertson

Kuenker said this 1 Mark was Polierte Platte. PCGS says MS....

Rexford

The latter two of the examples above should certainly be classified as MS, despite the designations by Kuenker.
The 1913-G has typical luster for a business strike 1 Mark and not the sort of luster you would see on any proof example. You should have watery luster rather than satiny luster on any mirror proof of this era (or any era really).
The 1874-D has rim weakness and softness to the beading, and the devices are rounded and not squared off. The fields don’t look especially watery or mirrored and the contact marks/scratches are also indicative of normal production and circulation. Nothing about it says “proof” to me, and many things say “business strike.”

From my observations it is far more likely that a prooflike business strike from this era be errantly deemed proof, than the other way around.

To the OP’s question: there are PL designations used for the German Empire era, although it is more prevalent with certain types than others - generally the 2 Marks and 3 Marks. For 1/2 Marks and Marks, it isn’t that uncommon that coins are semi-PL, but fully PL examples are more difficult to find, though they are out there. For earlier German States issues, the PL designation is very commonly used.

Paradisaea

@neildrobertson said:
This 1 Mark Kuenker sold as PP. It has a strong strike and rims and good luster but no mirrors. It is clearly a special coin, but without the understanding of minting methods...I don't know. PCGS says MS.

Certainly at least a candidate for a PL designation - is that not your finger reflected off the obverse fields, next to the eagles wing?

neildrobertson

@Paradisaea said:

@neildrobertson said:
This 1 Mark Kuenker sold as PP. It has a strong strike and rims and good luster but no mirrors. It is clearly a special coin, but without the understanding of minting methods...I don't know. PCGS says MS.

Certainly at least a candidate for a PL designation - is that not your finger reflected off the obverse fields, next to the eagles wing?

That coin is fairly far from getting a PL designation. It has too much cartwheel luster and isn't mirrored enough, despite being a very nice coin.

I use it as an example that the major outfits (auctioneers, and dealers) descriptions don't always align with the NGC/PCGS interpretation. The EA/PL designation included.

Paradisaea

Many thanks for the candid responses!

It was a browse through the population reports that prompted my questions, having also noted:

@neildrobertson said:
PCGS has only graded 8 1 Marks with the PL designation. The only Kaiserreich coins I have seen with the designation are the 2,3, and 5 Marks.

@Rexford said:
it is more prevalent with certain types than others - generally the 2 Marks and 3 Marks. For 1/2 Marks and Marks, it isn’t that uncommon that coins are semi-PL, but fully PL examples are more difficult to find, though they are out there.

I would have thought the contrary, with PL designations more prevalent among the 1/2 Mark and Mark issues. My reasoning is based on simple arithmetic (higher collective mintage = more dies = more PL examples) and, based on relative value, a greater incentive to selectively submit only the most attractive coins for grading.

With the perspectives shared, I am getting a sense the PL designation (as applied by PCGS) doesn’t necessarily capture coins meeting ‘semi-PL’ criteria and is quite restrictive. With the result of many 'erstabschlag' (EA) coins ending up in MS holders.

@neildrobertson said:
There are many beautiful EA coins that warrant a higher price tag than a normal coin. If it is in a normal slab, I have a chance at getting it for a reasonable price.

Yes! I think that's my take-home message.

neildrobertson

This is not German Empire, but I got the grade on it today. MS66. I thought it had a chance at PL, but evidently coins need to be even more proof like than this one

coinkat

I would have thought PL would have been probable with that '72F

teslasghost

I submitted this Bavarian 10 Marks recently to PCGS, and it received a MS64+PL designation. I don't know much about PL, the population is 1, so its the first they've designated PL for that Date/Mintmark.

Do these PL designations attract a higher premium? Curious.

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/45818179

neildrobertson

@teslasghost said:

Do these PL designations attract a higher premium? Curious.

The simple answer is yes. In US coins like Morgan dollars where the notion of PL/DMPL is more established and institutionalized, those coins will sell at a price equivalent to 1-2 grades higher. A MS64PL might sell at the price a MS65 or MS66 might sell at.

The amount of premium is highly variable on world coins and German coins right now. I was able to buy an NGC PL coin with maybe a 20% premium, but I've also seen another sell for 300% premium. There are definitely collectors that will pay more for the label irrespective of the qualities of the coin itself.

teslasghost

@neildrobertson said:

@teslasghost said:

Do these PL designations attract a higher premium? Curious.

The simple answer is yes. In US coins like Morgan dollars where the notion of PL/DMPL is more established and institutionalized, those coins will sell at a price equivalent to 1-2 grades higher. A MS64PL might sell at the price a MS65 or MS66 might sell at.

The amount of premium is highly variable on world coins and German coins right now. I was able to buy an NGC PL coin with maybe a 20% premium, but I've also seen another sell for 300% premium. There are definitely collectors that will pay more for the label irrespective of the qualities of the coin itself.

Thankyou @neildrobertson for your informative answer. It is much appreciated sir.