Lafayette Dollar varieties.
Maywood
Posts: 2,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
Does anyone collect Lafayette Dollars by variety?? What are the ranks by difficulty?? I have a listing, but it's old and hasn't been updated in quite some time, which shows 1-C as very rare. Is this still accurate and if so where would you value an example that grades XF?? Thanks in advance for any help.
Maywood.
0
Comments
I think 1C and 4E are still rare https://coinweek.com/editors-choice/commemorative-stories-1900-lafayette-dollar-part-ii/. Don’t think many people collect those by variety
@alefzero and @Eagleguy collect them.
See this thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/960649/lafayette-4-e-commemorative
Is anything remarkable about this one?
(I just picked it up a few days ago from eBay.)
peacockcoins
I have been studying them very closely. And have the complete set. The 1C does not exist.
I have registered 839 distinct certified Lafayette dollars and have seen well over 1,000 raw ones. Here is how the certified ones break down.
1A: 34 (4%)
1B: 448 (53%)
2C: 283 (34%)
3D: 70 (8%)
4E: 4 (1%)
Anecdotally, considering the full population observed, the most common is easily 1B about 55%. It is followed by 2C about 35%. 3D is about 8% and 1A 2%, with 4E insignificant.
The 4E census is as follows.
PCGS MS64, sold at the 2017 FUN show Heritage auction 1251, lot 6182, for far less than it is worth.
PCGS UNC Details, the Discovery Coin, which sold in its original ANACS MS60 Details holder on 9 Aug 2007, Heritage auction 454, lot 2090, for $18,400 (including the buyer's fee).
ICG MS60 Details, sold a year and a half later as Heritage auction 1122, lot 2080. It was originally holdered DGS AU58 Details and sold by DLRC.
PCGS AU50, my specimen from eBay in an ANACS AU50 holder.
It is the most common die pair, DuVall-1B. What is actually remarkable is that it was well circulated considering that these were sold by the Mint at a premium which was considered outrageous at the time. But people who had them during the Depression had needs and any money was money.
I think only 1C have been reported.
What would you say these obverses are??
Quickly, they both appear to be obv 1. But w/o photos to compare the varieties with, I couldn't be sure.
BTW, is The Authoritative Reference on Commemorative Coins, 1892-1954 By Kevin Flynn a good book for varieties with quality photos?
Thanks,
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
1 and then 2.
The reported 1C was likely mistaken because the doubling of the second A/AMERICA and even the second S/STATES are not always clear on every 2C. There are other PUPs. An easy one is the where in the denticles the right star points. For obverse 2 it is dead center. On obverse 1, it is nearly along the denticle edge.
I only have one circulated Lafayette and I had no idea that there were "better" varieties-so thank you for that. I do not see a lot of difference in auction records, so I assume that not a lot of people know or care. However, it is wonderful information for future hunting.
Sadly, mine, while a fully original circ AU-55, is the most common variety, the 1-B
Tom
Who originally catalogued the varieties? I remember seeing them published in Collectors Clearinghouse, but I don’t know who wrote the article.
So is it for sure that Anthony Swiatek's 1c doesn't truly exist?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Unless it is presented and properly examined, I believe it was likely a mistake. But if it is out there, it is rare. I have not seen one in probably over 3,000 examined. There have been a handful that initially appeared to be, having the C reverse and not clear common obverse 2 doubling. But each was dismissed due to secondary diagnostics. The dropped A/DOLLAR is pretty slight and can be less obvious with some wear.
Clapp and Wood cataloged 1A, 1B, 2C, abd 3D. Swaitek discovered 1C in 1980. The 4E was discovered by DuVall in 1988.
Here is an article. Scroll down to the Collecting Die Varieties section for those details.
https://coinweek.com/editors-choice/commemorative-stories-1900-lafayette-dollar-part-ii/
Is there a book available that shows actual photos of the varieties that one could better identify in comparison to written descriptions?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
No. I will write one to bring to the FUN show since I have all the coins (except 1C, if it exists) and a lot of data on them. Was meaning to do just that for the past few years, but got distracted by Trade dollars. It is a weekend effort to do it.
@jesbroken,
There are great photos of the key details for each obverse and reverse on this thread, starting about 1/3 down the page:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lafayette-dollar-a-numismatic-treasure.50032/
Thank you yos. I copied it to my file on the Lafayette Dollar along with many files and letters I have gathered via Newman Numismatic Portal, Internet Archive and various forum sites. Just peaked my interest. I would like to thank Lehigh96 for the great photos and write up. Hopefully he is still active. If not, my regrets.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Sorry, I can't make the Fun show. I did add Lehigh96's obv/rev photos of the varieties to my file on this Commemorative.
Thank you for the information. I did order The Authoritative Reference on Commemorative Coins, 1892-1954 By Kevin Flynn, even though it evidently will not have any additional information that I do not have. Let me know if you have a copy of your book that you would sell when you complete it.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
This is excellent. I had to do it the hard way-by comparing heritage lots. But this has it all!
Tom
Do you have a copy of an article that, IIRC, appeared in Collectors Clearinghouse in the late 60’s or early 70’s?
@alefzero said: 1 and then 2.
The reported 1C was likely mistaken because the doubling of the second A/AMERICA and even the second S/STATES are not always clear on every 2C. There are other PUPs. An easy one is the where in the denticles the right star points. For obverse 2 it is dead center. On obverse 1, it is nearly along the denticle edge.
I had ID'd both those obverses as "1" but admittedly am not very experienced with the diagnostics. At that, I feel most certain about the first coin I posted.
Both obverses are paired with the "C" reverse.
I no longer feel maywood's Lafayette as both to be #1 obverses. I noticed the 2nd A in America points to a denticle on #1 and between denticles on #2. Didn't run across a diagnostic for that, but they are different, thus different dies. No chance that photos of the dies themselves exist, is there? Doubt it.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@CaptHenway
I do not have any copies of Collectors Clearinghouse at all. There are many copies available on Internet Archives but the oldest I saw was in the 80's. Did not look at 1% of what's available though, just glanced at the dates.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
first one sure looks like obverse 1; second is obverse 2
Tom
Here is another die marker to distinguish Obv 1 from Obv 2 - the location of T in UNITED.
I find it's generally easier to use a long straight element for pointing,
rather than the right 5 pointed star mentioned by @alefzero.
And using the top center of the element instead of the edge makes it more consistent across varying lighting conditions.
This die marker also yields Obv 1 and Obv 2 for the photos posted by @Maywood,
assuming they are either 1 or 2.
Obv 3 has T over the upper part of a gap.
Obv 4 also has T over a gap.
Here is an array with the published die marker - low A in DOLLAR for Obv 1.
Note that the A is tilted in both Obv 1 and Obv 2.
I added the location of the second L, which I think may be easier to see than the low A.
I have not studied these dies as much as @alefzero by any means.
I just took the first 22 images in PCGS CoinFacts and attributed them to 1B (15) or 2C (7) using the reverse.
This yielded large photos for trying obverse markers.
And here's a late die state of Rev C which is probably only visible on very high grade coins with large photos. (PCGS CoinFacts photo). No doubt already well known to @alefzero!
Bowers Silver Dollar two volume set ,published in 1993, has detailed
descriptions of the varieties in the second book on pages 2968-71.
14,000 remained unsold. Transfered to treasury in Washington D.C.
Melted in 1945.
I think there may be a picture showing the bags before they were melted.
This appears to be Reverse C. Thought it is Obverse 1, but must be mistaken.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
@edwardjulio - yes, your coin has Rev C (lowest leaf tip over 9 center).
But it has Obv 2 - T of UNITED over gap in dentils - see my prior post.
Here is a simple reverse array, based on Lehigh96's work.
I checked your Truview. The repunched 2nd S in STATES that is diagnostic for obverse 2 is apparent in that photo.