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Anyone else seeing high premiums for 90%?

pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

I have been thinning the heard over the last few weeks. I was totally surprised yesterday when my Franklin and Kennedy Half Dollars in AU brought $190 a roll and my VF Walkers $200 per roll. I also sold off some EF/XF Walkers at $225 a roll (all common 42,43's). Melt is under $140 so that is a really high premium. When I bought these the premium was less than 5%. Washington Quarters were lower at $165 a roll but still at a premium.

Are others seeing higher prices or was that about normal?

I never ask what the price is to buy when I am selling. What is 90% selling for at LCS's?

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    FrankHFrankH Posts: 823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How real is JP Morgan data?

    "data has led many silver industry commentators to publicly speculate over JPMorgan's motivations as their silver warehouse now holds close to 50% of all deliverable silver bullion on the COMEX (the largest silver price influencing commodity exchange in the world)."

    https://mikesmoneytalks.ca/jp-morgan-holds-highest-amount-of-physical-silver-in-history/

    But then again.....

    https://seekingalpha.com/article/4535635-pivotal-point-for-precious-metals-is-jpmorgan-finally-leaving-this-market

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    This remains perplexing to me. Bullion buyers will pay $10 more for Eagles than one ounce rounds and even $5 to $7 over other sovereign coins. It's one thing for coin collecting but it is perplexing for bullion buyers.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Premiums on all forms of physical silver have been high for 2 years. Currently the WHOLESALE price on 90% is +$7 and +$9 on halves.

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    pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The dealer did mention that orders for silver are taking weeks to fill compared to days pre-Covid.

    I’ll probably keep an eye on it and move some more if this continues.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,623 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You may want to also ask this question in the Precious Metals Forum.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    You may want to also ask this question in the Precious Metals Forum.

    Over there I’m sure it would be all about paying nothing over melt 😉

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    jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The following is not silver relate (its about gold) but perhaps an indication of a shift?

    I think we should expect gold premium sto get much worse. China is becoming the worlds main holder/hoarder of gold. I wonder why...

    Link below to high premiums on gold in China. Think the west will hold onto the physical gold with premiums much lower?

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/commodities/news/shine-is-back-chinese-gold-fetches-huge-premium-as-demand-improves/articleshow/94385427.cms

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    jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    90% Premiums are stupid right now. Paying over spot otc, but Cant sell it locally, because my customers won't pay what my wholesaler pays me.

    word on the street, eagle premiums will stay up for longer duration, but 90% should start to level off soon

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    pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    90% Premiums are stupid right now. Paying over spot otc, but Cant sell it locally, because my customers won't pay what my wholesaler pays me.

    word on the street, eagle premiums will stay up for longer duration, but 90% should start to level off soon

    I was caught completely off guard when he offered (and paid) me 20+ times face when melt is $13.50. I left happy but he also seemed happy to get it. I guess both a collector and dealer can be happy (a past thread).

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    daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    Because it's MS 69! :D

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    vplite99vplite99 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have 3 eBay auctions of 90% closing today. I find it remarkable they are still fetching 19 - 20X face, when melt is 13.6. Nobody knows where the spot price of sliver is going; we can only now what the premium is, and base our selling decision on that.

    When silver was $25 the premium was narrower, but still decent. I have been selling a lot of junk 90% this year to capture the premium.

    I believe there is a premium for 90% because they are actual US coins. Same for silver dollars and ASEs, with even higher premiums.

    This has been a great market for selling ALL US coins.

    Vplite99
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    abdelmeg1abdelmeg1 Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited September 25, 2022 9:52AM

    The question I have is how long can that premium on physical silver and gold persist (in particular graded gold and silver), in view of the inevitable recession, and the continued hammering of paper gold and silver ?

    In particular there has been a huge disconnect between the price of paper gold and "slightly" better dates , certified old gold (in particular better dates $20 libertys and Saints). I am not talking about Rarities, but better dates $20's such as 1903-s; 1906-s; 1897-s, etc. in 63 and 64 ! Same observation with certified morgans ms64 & ms65 (with silver around $16).

    Is it true that dealers are really having hard time finding those ms63 and ms64 "slightly" better dates libertys ?

    Is it a good time to sell everything now and over the next few months ? or wait for a rebound in the price of gold and silver ?

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    ms71ms71 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @streeter said:
    If posted in the PM forum, Gutterman will try to convince you his offer of spot for SAE is in your best interest to accept because silver is gutter don't you know.

    The PM forum has .mostly devolved into 2-3 people arguing. Sad.

    Indeed. When an attempted exchange of opinions devolves into a hatchet fight it always seems to draw a crowd.

    Successful BST transactions: EagleEye, Christos, Proofmorgan,
    Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins

    Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.

    My mind reader refuses to charge me....
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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,994 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've mostly been adopting an attitude of "wait and see" ,at least in the short term, for buying pre-33 gold and 90% silver. But I'm also just watching coin auctions too, for the most part. A number of the auctions I'm watching are already up to what I'd be comfortable paying...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2022 11:18AM

    Many buyers at shows want quality silver coins - BU raw or graded ASE, Maple Leafs, Mexico Libertads. Never really been a fan of junk silver. Not somebody moving tons of it. If that’s your angle though - enjoy.

    Will todays high premiums on silver coins come down? I don’t know. It depends how cheap investors perceive silver coin BV.

    Buying a slabbed MS69 ASE with CPG at $51 for $40 or $45 not a bad deal at all. The money paid by the buyer over BV less than slab cost. And this a quality investment grade slabbed coin. For me, I will take that any day of the week vs bulk junk silver which probably know little about that market, don’t have the space for it, or would sink on its narrow spreads. Everybody has their own angle.

    Look how high slabbed MS69 and 70 Mexico Silver Libertads trading on eBay. However they seem a super deal vs slabbed US generic Dollars. More silver, much lower pops too. I just may pick up a few Mexico Silver Libertads.

    Do your research, work your angle, have fun.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @vplite The 45% premium seems high but people are buying. I have sold a lot lately thinking that premium can't hold. From past experience I am usually wrong so others can take it for what it is worth. Who knows, maybe we will see 25X or $30 silver soon.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Many buyers at shows want quality silver coins - BU raw or graded ASE, Maple Leafs, Mexico Libertads. Never really been a fan of junk silver. Not somebody moving tons of it. If that’s your angle though - enjoy.

    Will todays high premiums on silver coins come down? I don’t know. It depends how cheap investors perceive silver coin BV.

    Buying a slabbed MS69 ASE with CPG at $51 for $40 or $45 not a bad deal at all. The money paid by the buyer over BV less than slab cost. And this a quality investment grade slabbed coin. For me, I will take that any day of the week vs bulk junk silver which probably know little about that market, don’t have the space for it, or would sink on its narrow spreads. Everybody has their own angle.

    Look how high slabbed MS69 and 70 Mexico Silver Libertads trading on eBay. However they seem a super deal vs slabbed US generic Dollars. More silver, much lower pops too. I just may pick up a few Mexico Silver Libertads.

    Do your research, work your angle, have fun.

    69s are not "quality investment grade". 69 is an extremely common grade on ASEs.

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    BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    True survivalists need 90% as it is the smallest recognizable silver for everyday expenses. You don’t want to need a sandwich and only have a SE or 10 ounce bar.

    Kinda like having extra 22’s around…..

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
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    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    @MFeld The question I have is how long can that premium on physical silver (and also gold) persist (particularly for graded gold and silver), in view of the inevitable recession, and the continued hammering of paper gold and silver ?

    In particular there has been a huge disconnect between the price of paper gold and "slightly" better dates , certified old gold (in particular better dates $20 libertys and Saints). I am not talking about Rarities, but better dates $20's such as 1903-s; 1906-s; 1897-s, etc. in 63 and 64 ! Same observation with certified morgans ms64 & ms65 (with silver around $16).

    Is it true that dealers are really having hard time finding those ms63 and ms64 "slightly" better dates libertys ?

    Is it a good time to sell everything now and over the next few months ? or wait for a rebound in the price of gold and silver ?

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abdelmeg1 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    @MFeld The question I have is how long can that premium on physical silver (and also gold) persist (particularly for graded gold and silver), in view of the inevitable recession, and the continued hammering of paper gold and silver ?

    In particular there has been a huge disconnect between the price of paper gold and "slightly" better dates , certified old gold (in particular better dates $20 libertys and Saints). I am not talking about Rarities, but better dates $20's such as 1903-s; 1906-s; 1897-s, etc. in 63 and 64 ! Same observation with certified morgans ms64 & ms65 (with silver around $16).

    Is it true that dealers are really having hard time finding those ms63 and ms64 "slightly" better dates libertys ?

    Is it a good time to sell everything now and over the next few months ? or wait for a rebound in the price of gold and silver ?

    I have no idea how long the current premiums will last and I don’t know whether it’s a good time to sell bullion-related gold and silver coins.
    By the way, the premiums you mentioned for slightly better date $20’s graded 63 and 64 apply to graded and ungraded common date examples, as well - even lower grade unc. and circulated pieces.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    abdelmeg1abdelmeg1 Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited September 25, 2022 4:22PM

    @MFeld said:

    @abdelmeg1 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    @MFeld The question I have is how long can that premium on physical silver (and also gold) persist (particularly for graded gold and silver), in view of the inevitable recession, and the continued hammering of paper gold and silver ?

    In particular there has been a huge disconnect between the price of paper gold and "slightly" better dates , certified old gold (in particular better dates $20 libertys and Saints). I am not talking about Rarities, but better dates $20's such as 1903-s; 1906-s; 1897-s, etc. in 63 and 64 ! Same observation with certified morgans ms64 & ms65 (with silver around $16).

    Is it true that dealers are really having hard time finding those ms63 and ms64 "slightly" better dates libertys ?

    Is it a good time to sell everything now and over the next few months ? or wait for a rebound in the price of gold and silver ?

    I have no idea how long the current premiums will last and I don’t know whether it’s a good time to sell bullion-related gold and silver coins.
    By the way, the premiums you mentioned for slightly better date $20’s graded 63 and 64 apply to graded and ungraded common date examples, as well - even lower grade unc. and circulated pieces.

    I noticed that the premium on common dates saints and $20 Libs while still elevated, has dropped from few months ago, the premium on the slightly better dates not so much (or not at all). And the higher the grade, the stronger and more stable the premium is. Correct me if I am wrong.

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abdelmeg1 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @abdelmeg1 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    @MFeld The question I have is how long can that premium on physical silver (and also gold) persist (particularly for graded gold and silver), in view of the inevitable recession, and the continued hammering of paper gold and silver ?

    In particular there has been a huge disconnect between the price of paper gold and "slightly" better dates , certified old gold (in particular better dates $20 libertys and Saints). I am not talking about Rarities, but better dates $20's such as 1903-s; 1906-s; 1897-s, etc. in 63 and 64 ! Same observation with certified morgans ms64 & ms65 (with silver around $16).

    Is it true that dealers are really having hard time finding those ms63 and ms64 "slightly" better dates libertys ?

    Is it a good time to sell everything now and over the next few months ? or wait for a rebound in the price of gold and silver ?

    I have no idea how long the current premiums will last and I don’t know whether it’s a good time to sell bullion-related gold and silver coins.
    By the way, the premiums you mentioned for slightly better date $20’s graded 63 and 64 apply to graded and ungraded common date examples, as well - even lower grade unc. and circulated pieces.

    I noticed that the premium on common dates saints and $20 Libs while still elevated, has dropped from few months ago, the premium on the slightly better dates not so much (or not at all). And the higher the grade, the stronger and more stable the premium is. Correct me if I am wrong.

    The price premium over spot should be greater for higher grade examples, because at a certain point, a greater part of their value is numismatic, as opposed to bullion.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @abdelmeg1 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @abdelmeg1 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It appears there are high premiums on 90 pct. Not a buyer at that. I can’t see why and believe they will come down some point in time. I recently bought a Pcgs MS 69 ASE for $40 which appears to be a much better deal.

    Why does the much larger premium on the ASE appear to be a much better deal?

    @MFeld The question I have is how long can that premium on physical silver (and also gold) persist (particularly for graded gold and silver), in view of the inevitable recession, and the continued hammering of paper gold and silver ?

    In particular there has been a huge disconnect between the price of paper gold and "slightly" better dates , certified old gold (in particular better dates $20 libertys and Saints). I am not talking about Rarities, but better dates $20's such as 1903-s; 1906-s; 1897-s, etc. in 63 and 64 ! Same observation with certified morgans ms64 & ms65 (with silver around $16).

    Is it true that dealers are really having hard time finding those ms63 and ms64 "slightly" better dates libertys ?

    Is it a good time to sell everything now and over the next few months ? or wait for a rebound in the price of gold and silver ?

    I have no idea how long the current premiums will last and I don’t know whether it’s a good time to sell bullion-related gold and silver coins.
    By the way, the premiums you mentioned for slightly better date $20’s graded 63 and 64 apply to graded and ungraded common date examples, as well - even lower grade unc. and circulated pieces.

    I noticed that the premium on common dates saints and $20 Libs while still elevated, has dropped from few months ago, the premium on the slightly better dates not so much (or not at all). And the higher the grade, the stronger and more stable the premium is. Correct me if I am wrong.

    The price premium over spot should be greater for higher grade examples, because at a certain point, a greater part of their value is numismatic, as opposed to bullion.

    To be clearer, the price of higher grade and rarer coins is usually less affected by changes in the price of bullion. And this remains true whether bullion is on the rise or falling.

    As for the market in 90% US silver coins, yes, premiums seem crazy high now. I'd suggest selling into the strength. Or, if you're attached to the stuff, at least cull out the low quality pieces from your hoard and sell those. Because when you actually look closely at each coin, you'll realize how much of it is cleaned, scratched, rim nicked, etc, and you'll probably agree that the low end pieces aren't good enough to justify any premium at all.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka Exactly what I have been doing. A reason I thought it would be good to start the thread. A week or so ago there was a thread about Peace Dollars and Morgans and people were saying they would only pay melt or a little over. I wanted others to see there is a premium right now.

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2022 5:49PM

    In reading this thread - I don’t believe the high premiums on junk silver will last nor see that material as a quality investment. And then it’s bulky. If had some would just blow it out on the bay start at melt. But the shipping cost wb horrendous. Probably just do that at shows - sell it off.

    What gets me is if u bought it now the low end pieces (culls) they sprinkle in there would drag u down.

    What I think would be a neat investment buy is a box of 20 slabbed Mexico silver 1 oz investment grade Libertads different dates MS65 and above. I had a beautiful ANACS MS 70 yellow holder sell not that long ago to a couple at a show.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    PppPpp Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭

    Personally I love the divergence of spot (paper) to actual selling price for physical.
    I always look at companies like sdbullion and others asa guide. With melt at 13.6x sd is paying 18.1 to 18.6x (granted 500 ounces)and getting 20-22x is very possible. Local lcs are around 18x buying so that would be my max if buying outright.
    However, I find I do much better when I trade my numismatics for 90%.

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    OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2022 9:45AM

    One reason 90% might fetch a high price is relative scarcity. During much of the 20th century, the price was below melt and quite a bit got sent to the smelters, reportedly including bags of uncirculated silver dollars.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

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    CoinHoarderCoinHoarder Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was buying 90% for 4X face in the early 2000s, when nobody else was buying.
    I believe I have been paying about 19X to 21X face recently for hand picked "junk" silver..
    I have never sold any of it, so I don't know what dealers are paying to buy it.

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